Martin Prihoda

Martin P Prihoda (00:02)

My guest today has spent over 25 years doing some of the most important and least celebrated work in the field of human healing. She's a senior Hakomi trainer, a registered clinical counselor, a certified teacher of mindful self-compassion, and a woman who shows up for people at their absolute most broken. In hospital rooms, in grief, in crisis. She trained directly with Ron Kurtz, the creator of Hakomi, until his death in 2011.

She has built her entire life and practice here on Salt Spring Island, which is where I also call home. Marcia Burton, welcome to the Odyssey and Alchemy podcast. Thanks, Martin. It's really nice to meet you and to here. I was very interested in the practice of hakaomi. Can you describe a little bit what that is Yeah. ⁓

I have lots of ways I can talk about this depending on who's listening. So I think one way to describe it is it's a particular way of being in the world. So it is a psychotherapy method. But really the foundations of it are about loving kindness as something that we call loving presence. It's very grounded in Buddhist principles. And, and really just a

a way of being that celebrates everybody and everything. So that when I meet somebody, most of the training is about ⁓ finding a place in me, cultivating a place in me that celebrate. I want for everybody I meet to feel like they're being celebrated. Whether they're whether they're coming as my client or coming to help me in the garden, it doesn't matter. So it's it goes way beyond psychotherapy.

It's this way of being ⁓ like a greeting, a greeting and a warm friendly welcome. it's almost like in the yoga tradition when we say namaste is that the divine in me honors and respects the divine in you. Yeah. Yeah. And are a lot of your clients or the people you work with coming from places where they have difficulty accessing that?

part of themselves.

think we all have difficulty accessing that part of ourselves, including me, and I've been doing this for a long time. It's a constant starting again, starting again, starting again, and failing, and starting again. So yeah, a lot of people come because they're suffering and they don't know why. And there's a beautiful quote that I can't remember who said it, but it's something like, ⁓ my job is to help you to...

Remember the song in your heart and to sing it back for you when you've forgotten. So a lot of your techniques are ⁓ about remembering, remembering our authentic nature, remembering who we are. What is it that is stopping the remembering in a lot of us? Yeah, that's a really good question. You know, we're talking about, you know, this is really a...

deeply Buddhist principle around our basic goodness as human beings. And I think in our culture, a lot of it's about we're moving too fast. We're so lost in thought. And when we're busy,

trying to get somewhere or be someone, it's very difficult to accept and honor who we are, even to know or connect with who we are because we're so far ahead of ourselves.

That's true, isn't it? There is the Buddhist saying that to identify as is to suffer as. And ⁓ it would seem to me a lot of the issues that we're having are a real, just an identification with the egoic mind and personalities that we're having to prop up constantly. So would you say that a lot of your work is trying to create space between authentic self and

the certain identities that we have? Yeah, you could say that. I think I try and approach it from a, probably from a more simple angle. Like just...

being the space you had mentioned earlier that you were, you you were the space here holding the space in this interview. and I feel like that when I'm sitting with clients too, it's like, I'm holding the space for people and, and co-creating a space with them, for them, for them to unfold into.

And from there, all what's natural can take place without being bombarded by the regular stuff from everyday life. kind of seeing like a, like you're walking through the woods and you get to a clearing and there's just this kind of calm dropping down and you can see the sun and hear the birds in a different way than when there's so much clutter. Yeah, and

does is, is meditation a big part of Hakomi practice? Well, ⁓ yes and no. ⁓

I would say, ⁓ know, Ron would have said that... ⁓

Well, I guess we could split hairs between the difference between mindfulness and meditation, because they're not really exactly the same thing. But he used what he called ⁓ moments of mindfulness. He said, if you can be mindful for about 10 seconds, you can do hokomi. So you don't have to sit for hours or minutes even, but just be able to slow down enough to take something in in that very brief little window to really feel and notice what's happening.

Interesting. So could you speak a little bit more into the detail of what separates, what exactly Hakomi is and how it's different from more transcendental meditation or different other practices? Because it has a very unique name. Yeah, yeah. Well, actually, that's great because the name is a Hopi word. ⁓ And ⁓ there's a long origin story with that that I won't go into because it's kind of controversial.

But I was part of a group that kind of spent some years looking at, did we?

hurt the Hopi by taking this word. And short end of that story is we really looked into it. We talked to a bunch of people from the Hopi. We worked with indigenous consultants. And it's looking like they're OK that we took the name. And what we recognize is that we need to reciprocate. Because a gift in their culture is not free. It implies a

a relationship and we didn't hold up our end of the relationship we took and we walked away. So what we're trying to do now is ⁓ sort that out by offering there's a whole group is Hopi reconciliation committee is forming in the Hakomi world to address.

the lack of reciprocation and to ⁓ reciprocate in ways that are appropriate for them. So that feels really good. That's great news. That's the short thing. But the name itself is really cool. It means in the archaic Hopi language, means ⁓ how do I stand in relation to these many realms? And like the other translation of it is, who am I? So you asked me, what's the difference between

Hakomi and other kinds of meditators. Other techniques. Yeah, so yes. ⁓ Ron was calling it assisted self-discovery rather than psychotherapy because he didn't want to get into the whole world of the legalities of psychotherapy. He lived in the US and it was a bit thorny at times. So calling it assisted self-discovery.

And we could say that meditation is also well as self discovery, but it's not necessarily assisted. And I think that's the main difference. Well, one of the main differences there, I think there are many, but in terms of the self discovery part.

In Hakomi, self-discovery is with somebody else or even with a group. Whereas in meditation, that generally happens on the cushion alone. You may be in a room with other people doing the same thing, which is important, but you're not necessarily interacting. So it's that interaction with somebody else who's being mindful, who's being heartful, all the things that we're hoping to bring into our meditation practice to support it.

are already there being embodied with by somebody else who's actually sitting with us and can continue to feed that part for us as we're doing some unfolding.

And they can also that, that, providing that container and that state of mind is really important. And then also there's, there's some pretty simple techniques in Hakomi that absolutely do not work without the state of mind. So 90 % of a Hakomi training is working on this state of mind. And then you can, there's some little techniques that we can put in there that will support somebody to understand themselves better, find out something.

about the unconscious, their unconscious way of relating to themselves in the world that's creating unnecessary suffering. And we do that in relationship. So that's really unique to the Hakomi piece is we're doing it in relationship. We're not just doing it on our own, on the cushion. And what are some of the challenges you face when you're working with people who might be suffering from, you know, a...

deep sense of grief or loss or just ⁓ maybe mental illness. What are some of the challenges you face in guiding and working with these people and encouraging their self discovery?

You know, it's interesting when you ask that question, I find myself tearing up and I just want to kind of answer it from that place because something's something's very dear to me about that.

I feel like when people are grieving or really suffering.

We really just need to be held?

and so often in the world.

We're told to not do that. We're told to get on with it. There's one of the principles of Hakomi is nonviolence. And it's really important here.

If somebody's grieving, number one, they're a person.

Okay, the grieving, but they're a person. They're a person with this basic goodness. And really often when we're really suffering, we've lost touch with that basic goodness.

And so it's really important for me as a practitioner to drop my agendas about what I think they should be doing or how they should be doing it or to give advice or, and that's hard when someone's suffering. It's the hardest thing to do is to watch somebody suffer. And especially with grief, I have people who've seen me when they've lost a child in a really traumatic way and it's, they're on their knees and they don't need me to tell them how to be, who to be.

They need me to hold them in that and sit with them and cry with them.

holding space is a real skill. And it's not, ⁓ it's not something that's really taught. We're taught to fill up the space, aren't we? Yeah. Like silence is uncomfortable. We have to just fill it up with something we if there's if there's a moment of silence, then we have to just distract ourselves or do something. So it's part of the Hakomi journey learning to be with silence and be ⁓ present in

space that might be uncomfortable. Yeah, yeah, good tracking. Yes, definitely. I remember Ron saying, what was this? He this experiment where he had he had us sitting in pairs, the one person to be a speaker and the other to be a listener. And he'd have somebody sitting next to this to the listener. And

tracking the speaker with the practitioner. And as the speaker would pause, the helper would put their hand on the practitioner's back. And when they released the hand, was the practitioner, the signal to the practitioner that it's okay to say something now.

And those moments felt like a really long time. It was probably 10 seconds, but it was like, no, I can't leave them here without saying or doing something, right? But there was a magic in it because when I could slow down that much and make that much space, the person would often, after a five or 10 second pause, which doesn't sound like much, but when we feel that it's long,

They would usually start to speak themselves again, and they would take themselves deeper with me doing nothing other than staying there and loving them. And that to me was a huge eye-opener, that not only do we fill the space, but when we fill the space, it distracts the person from their own self-discovery. We're getting in the way.

rather than helping.

out of our own discomfort for the silence, but they're actually fine. They're over their suffering, but they're fine. They're easier about their situation than I am. Clearly I want to this space, but for them, they're okay because I'm there holding part of it, partly because they're fine, but partly also because we have an agreement. I'm to be there to hold the space with them and they know that I'm there. They don't need me to start talking to prove that I'm there. They can feel it.

the more I shut up, the easier it is for them to find what they're looking for. ⁓ That's really interesting because I have a similar experience from doing these podcasts because it's a conversational dialogue and I've found oftentimes with guests that I'll ask a question and they'll give an answer and then they'll naturally end the answer.

And then I have a choice whether to jump in or to just pause. And oftentimes if I just pause and just don't say anything, they'll start to speak again and they'll actually deepen that initial answer and give it more context. ⁓ It's really interesting phenomenon that happens. So it's been training myself as well to just pause more. Yeah, it's really skillful and it's not, it's not easy. No, it's way easier to say something.

which we think, you know, well, I got to say something, but it's, don't worry about saying something, just be there. There's also this sort of time dilation that happens. And I think you touched on that. There's this time dilation where these moments in silence seem like eternities. Yeah. But when you go back and listen, they're just a few seconds. But at that moment, it just seemed like the pause is so pregnant. Yeah. There's a quote.

I think said Mozart or something. Somebody, we can look it up later if you want to edit it in. It's something like the music, I think it was Mozart that said it, the music is more, the note, the spaces between the notes are more important than the notes themselves. Something like that. Now, that's another interesting thing about space. I was thinking about this on the car ride up here is that, you know, our thoughts,

⁓ our thoughts really tend to be just these linked trains of thought that ⁓ just are continuous and sort of replaying the same patterning and the same thinking over and over again. And the power of meditation for me has been the this discovery that there is a gap in between the thoughts and that within this space is actually where creation happens where you can ⁓ diverge the thought or ⁓

even just recognize that I'm on this thought train. And this is almost an unconscious patterning ⁓ that's coming from experiences that have built up into ⁓ ways of thinking. ⁓ And also this idea that, you know, we're not our thoughts, we're actually the observer of the thought is a very powerful, ⁓ you know, that's a very powerful realization as well in healing.

And that's a very yogic principle, this idea that we are the observer of the mind. Is that something that, is there something similar to that in the Hakomi tradition, this idea of observing the mind?

don't think that Ron would have disagreed with that.

guess we do. I guess what I would say would be we get curious about, you know, in a way, I suppose mindfulness is one definition of mindfulness that tends to be used more in the culture here, I think, is about ⁓

like noticing our present moment experience. So the mind being part of that, but we're also focusing on the body and the heart, the emotions and any images that come and the mind in that way, not so much in the more kind of abstract.

maybe where you're talking about it, think, the, a technique to look at what arises in my experience in relation to these many realms again. So taking, for example, a phrase or... ⁓

the phrase like, you're a good person. So someone might offer me that phrase and I'll say, yeah, of course I'm a good person. I know that. But if I bring my attention inside and really allow them to say that phrase to me, and I feel I'm watching for the thoughts, the feelings, the body sensations, any images, I'm going to get a really different response. I'm going to get.

What are you trying to do to me? know, some part of me is gonna get suspicious or I'm gonna react in some way to that statement. I'm probably not just gonna go all Zen and yeah, so of course I know this. I'm gonna react in some way, I'm gonna push it away. And so that's what we're doing in Hakomi. We're studying our relationship to a particular idea. How do I stand in relation to these many realms? How do I stand in relation to everything? I'm reacting to everything.

And that's because of how I'm, how I've, what we call it, how we organize our experience to meet the world. We all have unconscious expectations and beliefs about ourselves and the world. So if some, for some reason I don't believe that I'm a good person, I might think that I'm, you know, I was conditioned to think that I'm not good enough.

And so if someone says I'm a good person, I'm not really going to believe that. And I'll be doing all kinds of things all day long to prove that I'm good enough, because I don't really believe I am. And I do that out of, I do that unconsciously.

We all do, we all do these things. So that's part of the thrust of Hakomi is to learn about these different ways in which we organize our experience that keep the world out. Someone might be out there telling me I am a good person and I probably am, but if I don't believe it, then I'm gonna be suffering unnecessarily around that. If I won't be able to take in that nourishment when someone offers me that in a genuine way.

I'm curious about the term you use, the many realms. Can you expand on that? Yeah, well, that's from the Hopi language. So yeah, how do I stand in relation to these many realms? And I think probably in their culture, I don't know enough about their culture to ⁓ know exactly what they mean by it, but I'm imagining. ⁓

life itself, everything in life. And that would probably include the sun and the moon and the stars and the ocean and the stones and things that we might not consider to be animate. Yeah, I imagine it's like, how do I take my place in this world kind of thing? And

And who am I in that? Who am I really in that? Okay, I've got these things that I do that I'm organizing around. ⁓

organizing around trying to avoid suffering in my life. And I think what Ron was really pointing to, that was often what we would end up doing in the sessions, would be kind of picking at these things and looking at ways to interrupt them so that the person could have a different kind of experience that would be nourishing. And it's like for me, for example, I'm not good enough. So I'd actually get an experience of being good enough that interrupted all that infrastructure that I have. ⁓

buffers the heart. But then at the bottom of it, there would be, there would be moments sitting with Ron after a session. I don't know, I think sometimes for half an hour, where there'd be 20 people in the room, one person that had a session, but it impacted everyone. And people would just be kind of lying on the floor together or alone or

you know, weeping quietly, like it was so moving. Cause I think he really pointed us all in the direction of the basic goodness that's there. And that's what's lying there underneath all of these patterns. And it's easy, as easy as a psychotherapist to get, to forget about that because well, we're in the business of helping to like help people undo their patterning.

But the whole point that we're doing that for is so we can feel into what's in there underneath. And those are very, very powerful memories I have. And the first time I saw Ron working, I remember thinking, this isn't psychotherapy at all. This is healing.

This is healing and it's different to me. It was much more immediate and

sacred. Not that not that therapy can't be that, but

I think psychotherapy as a profession has gotten ⁓ kind of medicalized. And like I did my training in the UK, I used to live there. And when I moved here, it was like, ooh, this is different. People's idea of psychotherapy and counseling is very different here from in Britain. In Britain, it's much more connected with, I would say.

those those more sacred roots. And I you know, I don't want to broad brush psychotherapy, because there's so many so many ways to do it. And I know there's a lot of people around here, including myself that do it differently. But just as a general as a general rule. It's a bit different. Yeah, that's interesting. I think that's why, you know, a lot of people do sometimes explore different cultures, a lot of people go east.

We, you know, I know a lot of people that, you know, spend time in India. And I think it's because there is that ⁓ idea of the sacred that I think the West has pushed out a little bit. ⁓ Maybe because it's something that can't be ⁓ quantified. I'm not sure how you quantify the soul or quantify the authentic self. I think for a lot of people, it just sounds woo woo.

even though when you do get down and deep into your into your ⁓ into your meditations and start to experience that that it's undeniable that there is this ⁓ part of us that is divine, that is the that is that which that observes the experience the witness there is this witness. And I agree with you that that the base nature of that witness is is good is goodness.

And that is the underlying ⁓ quality to every human. And that's such a powerful thing ⁓ to realize because even if you see people acting the way they do in the world, you have now compassion for them because you know they are not acting in a way that is aligned with their basic goodness, something is being obscured. Obscurations.

in Sanskrit, Klesh has the obscurations of consciousness that allow for the dimming of the light. Anyway, those are all interesting things. I think we're on the same page with that. Yeah, yeah. Something you said there just reminded me of something. The...

Like these distractions that can become our lives, the, the trying to become something to be, you know, be somebody or to get something done or to have these fixed views and opinions about things. Ignorance and sensory, you know, looking for sensory pleasures and these things can really, like you say, they kind of cover over.

basic goodness and one of the one of the main pieces of Akomi as I've mentioned is this ⁓

cultivating a particular state of heart, state of mind to be with somebody in. And one of the primary practices that we do is to look for in the other person, whether they're, like I say, the gardener or a friend or a client, whatever, but to have the interaction based on really seeing the beauty in the other person, seeing them as ⁓ imagining that they're a Rembrandt painting or ⁓ a

flower or what animal are they but kind of feeling into who is this person beyond all this stuff that we're we kind of have this these agreements that we're going to just talk about the stuff and miss

all the other stuff that's really there. this is a, it's a very powerful thing to do, to sit with someone and just look at them and be with them in a way that's acknowledging and honoring and celebrating this basic goodness. And when we do that, it'd be fun technique for you to try in your podcasts to, when we do that,

We start to light up our basic goodness comes through. Sure. And the other person can get inspired by that. And they feel so seen and known and heard that they're just going to start unfolding into the space because there's a resonance going on. That's a goodness. And there's nothing to push against. And that's, think, where the healing can really happen. There's a Hakomi's an invitation. Right. Yeah, that's wonderful.

And I think you're so right about the stuff that comes in the way because before, you know, when we meet somebody, before any of the heart stuff happens, you know, we have all these preconceived judgments, know, what clothes are they wearing? What car do they drive? Like there's all these, that we just can't help but stack up about certain people.

And ⁓ so to bypass all of that ⁓ and say, you know, beyond all of that stuff, who is this person from a deeper level? And I think the only way you can do that is if you really develop that relationship with yourself first. It would be very difficult to see that in others if you don't see it in yourself.

Yeah, well, that's part of the or you can do it sort of simultaneously as the as the unfolding happens, the unfolding happens out there and folding within and unfolding out there happens. Yeah, yeah, I think it's like that. It's been that that way for me and my journey. Like I was doing been had been doing hikomi for probably 20 years. And then I was just feeling a bit dry, but stale and

I couldn't figure out what was wrong, but I needed something and I didn't know what it was. And someone suggested to me, Oh, hey, Marcia, you should try this mindful self compassion program. I was like, I don't sell compassion. don't know. But I went to it and I was it was amazing. It was so good. And I saw how very not self compassionate I was. How very not hard on yourself. Yeah, yeah. And how you know,

I felt I think what was happening was I got as far as I could at seeing the good in others without really seeing it in myself enough to go any deeper with it with anybody else. So I you know, I could see the need for it in myself. It was you know, it was such a such so transformational for me that that program. And, and now I feel like it's really it's it's kind of brought the Dharma back into my life and

because it's based on that even though it's not ⁓ like the kind of taken the Dharma language out of it. ⁓ But it's completely based on the Dharma. Yeah. So I mean, that sounds like a profound breakthrough. ⁓ Can you can you describe some of the techniques that that allowed you to that allowed that opening of self compassion for yourself?

Yeah, I remember sitting in a training with Christopher Germer, who was one of the people who developed it and

I don't remember exactly what he was saying, it was something like, you know, we kind of found something that I was angry about and ⁓ he was asking me if I could offer some kindness to the anger. And I was just like, I understand what you're saying, but all I feel inside is hollow.

I don't feel any connection to my heart in this. I just feel angry. And if the anger dissipates, it's just hollow. It's like there's nobody that Baron was the word I use. It's like a barren landscape. There's nobody home. And it was so profound to, to.

to experience that, because I would never have described myself that way, but there it was right in front of me. And he did something, and I don't really remember what it was, but he helped me kind of go in through the back door and get a little glimmer of my own heart in that moment. ⁓

And I think I somehow learned to, can't even, I don't even really know exactly how I did that. ⁓

But I did. ⁓ And I think I learned really well through teaching. So I've been teaching the Mindful Self-Compassion program for about 10 years. And through the teaching, like I'll always say to my students, I am the slowest learner of this that I've ever met. I've met a lot of people teaching this, and I am the slowest learner. And that's okay. And I'm okay with that. Because I know that I'm getting better at it. I think it was just, you know,

early childhood family trauma and abuse and I just learned to cordon off my heart. wasn't safe. It wasn't safe to feel certain things. And ⁓ yeah, thanks for sharing that Marcia. ⁓

you know, there's this there's this idea of in therapy of reframing and how much of the healing process is being able to identify a thought say a thought you have about yourself like, I don't know. ⁓ What's a common one? I'm like, I'm bad with money, or ⁓ I can't I can't do this, right? Or I'm bad at relationships. ⁓

is being able to just take a step back and just say, okay, I just said that. Is that true? ⁓ And how can I reframe that? Or how can I ⁓ change that internal dialogue? And so changing our internal dialogue, is that also part of that tradition of healing? Being able to reframe ideas?

Do you mean the mindful self compassion? Yes, mindful self compassion or the Hakomi. Yeah. How we speak to ourselves. Yes.

I think they're, they've got two different roots in. Yeah, in in mindful self compassion in that situation. So yeah, if someone's being self critical, I would there's a lovely technique. Well, it's a technique. It's a exercise you can do called How do I treat a friend? So ⁓ okay, so

I hear you that you're really not very good. You don't think you're very good with money. Let's just imagine you have a friend, like your best friend, your best friend, even your dog, okay? And they come to you and say to you, you know, they come for help, like, I'm not good with money. I don't know what to do. How would you treat your friend? And almost always they'll say, well, I would say, ⁓ come on, it can't be that bad. Like, like,

let's look at this together. I would, I said, well, it's sort of, what sort of tone of voice would you speak to them in? ⁓ I'd be nice. Maybe I'd give them a hug and okay, can you turn some of that towards yourself? And ⁓ no, wait a minute, I can't do that. So, okay, so it's not that you don't know how to be compassionate. It's just that you're not doing it to yourself. So you're halfway there. And looking at ways to really bring that in more.

Yeah, self-love. I always say that my mantra is that the most important relationship you're ever gonna have is the one you have with yourself. And all relationships out there in the world are gonna be a reflection of the quality of that initial relationship. really, if we wanna be the best we can in the world, best, if I wanna be the best father or the best husband or the best human being I can, I really need to be the best I can to myself.

And that doesn't mean giving myself a free pass. But it means that, you know, just taking responsibility and also ⁓ just really being aware of the internal dialogue and the compassion and the forgiveness for oneself, I think is very, powerful, because then you can flower that out to others. Have you had any patients or any clients that have been transformed completely through?

⁓ the Hakomi practice.

or the mindful compassion or itself. How did you say itself? mindful, self compassion, mindful, self compassion. Have you have you seen a lot of success or transformation?

You what happens when I hear that question is it's really hard to know.

what's causing something out there. ⁓ I would be hesitant to credit Hakomi or mindful self-compassion with anything because we all, you know, there's such complexity around healing. ⁓

Certainly, I've seen people feel better from doing both, certainly. And me, myself included, like completely transformational for me ⁓ as part of whatever else was going on in my life, you know? I think both of those modalities have been super healing for me. That's great. How...

How can we use our bodies? This and this idea, again, this is a yoga concept, but this the body is actually an outer extension of mind that there's a continuum for mind that extends out to body. And I think there's something similar with Hakomi. ⁓ How do you, how do you or what are your experiences with using the body itself as a physical tool for healing? Yeah.

Yeah. ⁓

Daniel Goldman in his book, Emotional Intelligence, speaks of, I think it's 90, 90 % of emotional communication is nonverbal. 90%. So if I'm sitting there as the therapist, and I'm only listening to the dialogue, I'm missing 90%. That's a lot. So in Hakomi, we learned to track body language, track the nonverbal. And the body will,

give it gives signals that are from the unconscious. And they're often trail heads to something that we can use for deeper healing. ⁓ Give an example, like body posture, for example, you know, somebody sitting there with their arms crossed and their shoulders up to their ears, and ⁓ kind of a tightness around the mouth.

Well, what do you think they might be experiencing? They might be angry. They might feel defensive. We know that we know these things.

Because we have learned to track the nonverbal with each other all the time, but we don't always pay attention to it. We'll pay attention to the word. The person's saying, I'm not angry, even though they've got their arms folded. then it's like, oh, I know you're angry because your body's telling me you are, but your mind is, your mouth is saying something different. So then in Hakomi, we learn to follow the unconscious as the trailhead to healing because

As much as we try, you know, it's easy to have ideas about ourselves that are wrong. And the body doesn't lie in the same way. It'll show up and give really important information about what we need. ⁓

Yeah, it's a little bit hard and hard to talk about nonverbal I realized exactly this is we're not being filmed. 100 % verbal podcast. Although you know people can hear the tone of our voices so they can get a nuance but yeah, I can't kind of give you a posture and everyone will laugh and know what it is. But you know you can do things like watch watch TV with the volume off.

And you'd be surprised at how much you can, especially something that's dramatic, a soap opera or something, you know what people are feeling by how they're moving their bodies. You can't hear a word of what they're saying, but you know, you know what the emotion is. So we already know how to do this, but it's like learning to make that tracking conscious. So we can figure out what it is. What is it the person is doing that's making me think they're angry? Well, yeah, it's the, you know, their, their lips are really tight or,

I can hear it in their voice. There's like a staccato tone in the voice like this. You can feel the tension in the chest almost come out through the. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You know, it's funny that you had mentioned posture because I had a bit of a profound it's you know, sometimes, sometimes

Sometimes enlightenment or not, not enlightenment, but sometimes realization just comes in such a flash. But I had one experience that I'll share with you. But when I was younger and like so many teenagers, I suffered, I didn't have great posture, shoulders hunched like that. And I was always told, bring your shoulders back, bring your shoulders back. And I just sort of ⁓ never really stuck this whole shoulders back thing. And then I ⁓ started doing yoga in my early 20s and

⁓ a teacher said to me, was sort of having a posture and stuff, I'm gonna try on my shoulders back and he's, they were like, well forget about the shoulders. Just imagine you have a string that's connected to your heart and it's pulling forward and it's leading like this. And I was like, my God.

like heart forward, and then all of a sudden the shoulders are back, but it's not this sort of willful shoulders back, like why shoulders back, but heart forward. And now, you when I walk, I just always remember I'm like heart string, and then it just, the chest opens, the heart opens, and the heart leads. So it's vulnerable because your heart is now, you're not sheltering your heart, your heart is out, but at the same time, I think it really projects trust and self love and...

just an openness to the world, as opposed to just like this shoulders back, which is kind of this militant thing parents say, right? Right. You know, yeah, yeah, up your back, shoulders back, which lead with your heart. Yeah. And so so that's great. That's that's an example of the heart, ⁓ the body. ⁓

leading the way in a in an emotional healing that if you think of that image, the heart comes forward and so that a mind and the body being intricately connected. And so we can access ⁓ core material through the body. And that will lead us to emotion, or we can start with emotion, it'll lead us to the body. Yeah. And it's interesting. ⁓ You know, when you're

the whole shoulders that this whole protection of it's really just trying to protect the heart, like when we hunch forward like that. But when we when you walk into a room or when you you know, when you you're coming in front of people or and you have your heart open, it's vulnerable. And it I guess, are you signaling that you're open, you're signaling that you're vulnerable? Are you what are you signaling confidence? All of the above?

I don't know. That's interesting, right? Because how you enter a room or something or if you're going to be speaking in of a crowd, how you want to present. I always think presenting with the vulnerability is actually a bit of a superpower.

So I'm not sure what my question was there. I think you're talking about non verbals and we're giving out non verbal signals to each other all the time. Right. So yeah, and that has an influence on others. ⁓ But I was gonna ask you like if for somebody listening that's that's interested in this in this work, what is something? ⁓ What is something they can start doing tomorrow?

I even say today, say tomorrow, because you know, give them a little procrastination time. What can they start tomorrow to deepen their practice? Well, I say try it right now. Just take a moment to just relax and take a couple of slow easy breaths right now. Close your eyes.

And then.

Open your eyes and whatever it is that your eyes land on first.

Really look at it. If it's small enough, pick it up and feel it.

Find something beautiful about what's right here.

and let yourself notice what happens inside when you do that.

Let it touch you.

There's a quote from Jack Kornfield here that I, did I write it down? Maybe I didn't, I think I remember it. If it's not this, it's something very close. If you can see the miracle, if you can see the simple miracle of a flower.

your whole life would change. You could see the simple miracle of a flower. Your whole life would change. Your whole world would change.

And it's, we already think that flowers are beautiful, but right now I'm looking at a, like a wire on the table here. And so it's like, wow, somebody made this thing. And it's got the capacity to connect probably a computer to a cell phone or something. That's like.

What's a miracle if not this, right? It's like everything, everything, everything that we start looking. It's that word. ⁓ One of my colleagues has this exercise. This is another one. ⁓ Just bring your attention inside for a moment. Take a couple of breaths.

And then silently or out loud, it's probably better if you're in a place where you can do it out loud. Just say the word, wow. Say that four or five times. Wow. Not thinking about anything in particular, just.

Notice how that changes the state of mind. And if we can meet the world this way, it's going to be a different world.

Yeah, meeting the world with wonder. Exactly. Because you have to be present. Yeah. You're not in the past, you're not in the future. And you're probably not in I'm not good enough. Yeah, and we're always oscillating, you know, and this is a this is a Buddhist concept of the, the, the oscillation between the poles of a virgin and craving.

or chasing this or pushing that away and constantly going like this. if we just settle into that present. And this is the interesting thing about the body is ⁓ as a Vipassana meditator myself, this idea that we're sitting in stillness and observing the sensations in the body. And for example, for me, sitting after a long time, I start to get discomfort in my hips.

And at first you just you're shifting, you know, you're always shifting and you're running away and you want to move and you want to you want to change that sensation. But after a while, you realize that, OK, I'm going to be sitting here for a long time. And what would happen if I just observed this sensation? Instead of running away from it constantly or trying to attach myself to something more pleasurable, what if I just observed what this is at this moment? And then you're like,

It's only uncomfortable because I'm telling myself that it's uncomfortable. But really it's just a sensation that I'm attaching a value to. And so that becomes sort of a grounding for any interaction with anybody because you just see this as a neutral experience that you have a choice to attach a value to. So I think that's kind of a, that's a.

For me, that's a break breakthrough sort of moment I had when I was when I was doing my meditations with the pasta. I'm like, ⁓ actually the sensation and then after it's it's interesting because then sometimes sometimes you're like, this actually isn't really that unpleasant. It's actually just you know, it may be it feels good or sometimes it's hot. Sometimes it's cold. Sometimes it's ⁓ sometimes it's red. Sometimes it's blue. Sometimes it's changing. It's constantly in flux. It's like

So everything is in constant motion. So if we can just observe that, the fluctuations of life, of sensation in the body, of things people say, I think we can start to live with ⁓ more peace, more joy, more sanity, instead of being constantly wafted along every breeze that comes along. Yeah. Yeah. And the slowing down.

You know, the slowing down. Yeah, just okay. This is how it is now. Yeah. And can we be okay with this? Like this now? Even if we don't like it. And then if we do really like it to also be, you know, can we can we enjoy this and know that it's going to change? Can we let it go and it's time for it to go? It's funny people always say this too shall pass. ⁓ But

you know, 99 % of the time you're referencing something that's bad going on in your life, right? This shoot, this too shall pass this, this negative feeling. But, you know, when things are really good, and things are pleasurable, everything's going great. Not too often we say, well, this too shall pass. We're like, no, this has to stay for longer. Yeah, that's right. Let this feeling stay. So this too shall pass ⁓ applies to both those poles.

Yeah. Let's see what else I can ask you. Do you have anything else you want to share? Or something that I maybe haven't touched on?

Well, something that's going on is I'm remembering that quote about the flower. ⁓

If you could see a single flower clearly, your whole world would change. That's the Jack Kornfield. What else would I want to say?

Okay, I've got a question. Great. How does slowing down and becoming present actually accelerate healing? Yeah. Yeah, well, some people would say that time doesn't really exist. So

slowing down or speeding up on some level our fabrications. And if we slow down.

we're less likely to be cramming the space full of the unnecessary.

Does it accelerate healing? think, I don't know if I would use that word, slowing down, accelerating healing, although I like the phrase. Maybe facilitates a better word. Yeah, yeah, think that's right. I think that's where I'm going. It's like slowing down facilitates healing because it...

it allows a natural impulse to complete itself without being interrupted. Sure. Yeah. When we're going fast, there's there is another phrase I heard once a quote like unfridged magnet ⁓ rushing causes violence. And I really like that, like.

When we're going fast, it's like we have an agenda and we're not really paying attention to what's needed right now. We're not really attending to the moment. We're running away from it. And when we slow down, it's like everything's there waiting for us. It's waiting for us to pay attention. And it's very difficult to pay attention when we're going fast.

And there's also the interesting dichotomy between physical injury and emotional injury that, you know, if you break your leg, then you're in a cast and you're bedridden until that's healed properly. And the doctor says, you know, okay, this is healed enough for you to start putting weight on it, but slowly in this, and we're much more attuned to that. But with emotional healing, sometimes it's like, okay, I've experienced some tremendous grief, but I've just...

got to get on with it and I've got to just get with it. And it's sort of like the equivalent of walking on that broken leg too early. Yeah.

Well, yeah, maybe emotionally it what it does is it it it sort of compacts things, I think, if we don't allow the space. Maybe it's more about space than time. Like allowing the space for something to unfold in its natural rhythm is like a flower opening. Well, try and force the flower to open faster than it wants to. Like, that's not going to work. It's going to kill it.

And it's the same with our emotions. There's a particular rhythm and a natural unfolding of the life force and healing that wants to happen. And that's again, coming back to Hakomi, like creating that space, co-creating a space with someone that says, no, this space is for your healing to unfold. And I don't know. I don't know what your system needs to unfold here. All I can do is help to co-create the space.

for that to happen and then we're gonna wait together. We're gonna wait together. Okay, so that's beautiful. So that's an interesting sort of another definition or understanding of Hakomi is that it's really a vessel for holding space so that the body can ⁓ utilize its own natural ⁓ healing abilities, mental and spiritual. it's, ⁓ I guess that's where the self-assisted comes in. It's just that it's holding the space.

so that we can heal ourselves in that safety of that space. Right. The assisted self discovery. Assisted self discovery. Yeah, right. Right. I'm Ron used the metaphor I thought was great of, you know, a midwife versus

What's it called an obstetrician? Yeah, yeah, or OB OB GYN. Yeah, the OB part. And but the midwife, the midwife supports the woman to have what she needs to she follows, she follows the woman. She allows the woman's system to show her what what she needs. Whereas the the

doctor at the end of the table with the forceps. Okay, it might be life saving and that's important, but sometimes they're intervening in a way where they're showing the woman what to do. They're telling the woman what to do. They're taking over the natural process unnecessarily. And that's using violence, whereas the midwife is using ⁓ following and supporting and allowing that natural, somebody's giving birth, it's natural.

doesn't need to be interrupted unless for some reason it's gotten stuck and then thank goodness we have those people that know how to pull babies out. ⁓ yeah, mostly it'll happen naturally. And healing, emotional healing's the same. Our systems know how to do that. They just need some support sometimes. And love.

Marcia, was great having you on. It was a wonderful chat. I'm very honored and blessed that you could come on and speak about your work. Yeah, yeah. Well, thanks. Thanks for having me. was nice to meet you. Okay, take care. Okay, bye-bye.

n text goes here

Description textMartin P Prihoda (00:01)

Welcome to the Odyssey and Alchemy, a space to explore the journey inward and the transformation that unfolds from it. I'm your host, Martin Perhota, and my hope is that these conversations help light the path towards wholeness, connection, and a deeper sense of shared humanity as we navigate this fast-changing exponential age together. Here, you'll hear from inspiring voices in the physical, mental, and spiritual wellbeing space, people who are helping shape a more mindful and meaningful future.

If you enjoy what you hear, please like, subscribe and share. I'm so glad you're here. Let's dive in.

Martin P Prihoda (00:33)

Welcome to the Odyssey Alchemy podcast.

Martin P Prihoda (00:51)

My guest today has spent 40 years doing something most of us are only beginning to understand, living as both a warrior and a sage, Satyan Raja is a Kung Fu master, spiritual leader, and the founder of Warrior Sage, a global movement that has transformed over 100,000 people across 50 countries. He coaches CEOs, world leaders,

and high impact individuals to move beyond peak performance into what he calls peak existence, a life of power, heart, freedom and wisdom all at once. His name means truth in Sanskrit and this conversation is gonna live up to it. Satyayan, welcome to the podcast, my brother.

Satyen Raja (01:29)

Brother, thank you so much for your generous introduction and you too are also a warrior and sage in your own right so a mutual honor.

Martin P Prihoda (01:37)

Well, that means a lot. And ⁓ one interesting thing, and I love this about the name Warrior Sage, is that a lot of people would think that those two things are very separate, but you've managed to combine them into one spiritual concept. Can you just talk a bit about how those two things reconcile?

Satyen Raja (02:01)

Yeah, it's the yin and yang, the masculine and feminine, the eternal principles of duality. And so the warrior is obviously the part within us that has strength, courage, resoluteness, willing to do whatever it takes to cross the finish line, stands for integrity, for depth, for Dharma. The sage is the one that's already rested in eternal wisdom. The sage is the sacred center of being.

The sage is the connection to universal wisdom, the God force, Gaia, Mother Earth. And for me, if we're just all sage and we don't have enough warrior, then what happens is we can end up in platitudinal dimensions and not have action. Or we can be very forward and moving hard and going like this, but we don't have the softness and the attunement and the feminine sage. So to me, these are yin and yang, complementary forces within our own nature to cultivate and to strengthen.

Martin P Prihoda (02:59)

So how can ⁓ one say a man or a woman or I assume this is more of a masculine thing, does the techniques you teach apply to men and women?

Satyen Raja (03:13)

Men and women, see, within, of course the warrior has more of a masculine male sound to it than the sage does, but these are universal principles. Everyone has the inner warrior within the male or female, everyone. Now, our warrior aspect is atrophied from a world that doesn't need as much challenge as it did in earlier times in our society. But we grow our warriorship through challenge. And that's why that challenge,

And that could be warriorship in many ways, going through trauma, ⁓ surviving great challenges in life. It doesn't mean that one is a martial artist or flying around with swords or weaponry. It means that they've found a resoluteness, an inner strength that is, you can't extinguish. They found that. That to me is the true warrior within. So this is universal. We all have that. And we need it. And we need it now more than ever. We need our warrior and our sage more than ever.

Martin P Prihoda (04:10)

I was gonna say.

Satyen Raja (04:13)

the

Martin P Prihoda (04:14)

I was going to say, Sachin, I was just on a podcast yesterday with a very good friend of mine, he's a naturopathic doctor, Rigo. And he says through his work that he's seeing from the blood tests he does with men specifically that testosterone levels have dropped almost half of what they were 50 years ago. And it seems to fall into this category that somehow socially we're losing our masculinity. What would you say to that?

Satyen Raja (04:43)

Absolutely, there's an agenda to neuterize and to neuter us men, especially our masculine force. Because it's the force of new creation generation. When the masculine has strong testosterone and strong energy and strong resoluteness and sovereignty in our being, what happens is we can't be controlled. We can't be manipulated as much. We can't be...

seduced into other things because we're tuned into our own drive, our own passion, our own directionality. We start to feel that. Now the forces, all types, there's so many, your doctor friend must have shared about the physiological aspects of weakening our testosterone. But this is happening so silently, not just out of physiology, look at it in our movies. lot of men and fathers in movies nowadays come out looking like dumb guys. Like

Dumb guys, guys who mean nothing, can't do anything, are blabbering. So a lot of the imprints that are going in society are weakening the idea and the image of the masculine and their strength is good. And so there is an agenda to weaken us and what happens is when we depolarize between us as lovers, men and women, or partnership, when we depolarize that energy and weaken it, the internal energetic of a human has to polarize.

So instead of polarizing with partners and your lover and your family unit, we polarize with the state. And that's what the Chinese did years ago. When the Red Revolution came into China, they depolarized everyone by making everyone wear this khaki green, neutralized men and women, you depolarize from each other and the foundations of a healthy society, which is family and couples and their relationship.

And then you deep and then you start to polarize with the state. And this is really dangerous and that more and more of that is happening, but in a slow drip way over years rather than an overt all at once takeover. And we need to actually combat this truly within ourself as men.

Martin P Prihoda (06:55)

Well, I think we're seeing it a lot too in speech modification. What is acceptable speech now? it, you know, speech and language are extensions of our cognition. if language can be modulated into this other path of weakening, then we start to adopt the language that contributes to that, we?

Satyen Raja (07:17)

Look, the whole idea of patriarchy in the old sense, yes, for thousands of years, there's been atrocities to women. There's been an imbalance. Yes, absolutely. We need to acknowledge, honor that, honor that we haven't treated women with the same respect and dignity and equalness and love. But we're at a different stage now. Over the last 20 years, things have changed rapidly. There's more to go, but...

We cannot throw out the baby with the bathwater. We cannot throw out strong masculine and strong feminine. So even those with the feminine women, they've been taught to suppress their feminine nature, to squash it, and to take on more of a masculine role of achievement, going somewhere, being somebody, ⁓ all of those energetics, which are great and valuable, but that's not feminine awakening. That's masculine adoption to counterbalance

an imbalance, that's a stage, but we need to go to somewhere deeper. To me, it's repolarization of our sacred feminine and masculine energy. First learning what it is, learning that it's not bad, that it's actually the most glorious force in our body, brings children, babies, we're here because of that force. Our children, our families are here because of this force. And so we need to learn to love our maleness. We need to learn to love.

our femaleness and celebrate the uniqueness of our genders, not neutralize them. That's really important.

Martin P Prihoda (08:52)

Okay. And let's go back to, let's go into some practicalities. Let's say, you know, let's say you're a man and, you you're going through a tough time. ⁓ You're struggling with a sense of purpose. Maybe you've got debt. You've got all these things weighing on you. Maybe you're going through a divorce. What's something that a man who's going through a struggle like that can start tomorrow to help alleviate at least the energetic,

Satyen Raja (09:22)

That's it.

Martin P Prihoda (09:23)

issues around that.

Satyen Raja (09:29)

When a man doesn't have a deep purpose, we flounder, we get distracted, we go for shallow shit, we wander in the woods, we wander in the desert, you know, we succumb to the superficial, sex, drugs, rock and roll, whatever it is, those things are good and fun, but we don't deepen ourselves. The way to reclaim our masculine true core essence is number one, through loving challenge.

We must challenge ourselves to find and seek a vision and a mission that is greater than where we're at right now. One that makes us go, wow, that's an edge. If I go towards that, I'm gonna feel an edge. I'm gonna feel a risk. And we need to feel that risk. It could be a physical, mental, emotional, could be a new path that you're taking, a new venture, a new hobby, could be volunteering. It needs to be something that brings us out of our comfort.

and takes us to the edge. One of the best things to do is to go in nature, camping by yourself with minimum stuff, and then be with God in nature. Open up with God in nature and say, God, what am I really here for? What really, what am I truly here for? And if you open up your heart and you open up yourself in the quietude of nature, you don't have distractions, your cell phone and noise and to-dos and all of that. After a while, a day or two, three,

Deeper into a deeper message will come It always comes it never fails and you got to listen to that message and that less message may be Okay, go volunteer it with the elders go support anti trafficking of children and women Find somewhere where that's an edge and go conscript yourself to it that Taking on an edge a challenge for yourself will start to alive in the life force That'll take you to the next step

That next step, something will happen there. A person you meet, something they'll share will then guide you to the next step. That step will guide you to the next. But if you're cowardice or you're sitting there and you're just moping around and commiserating, my life's not going nowhere, you're not gonna find the next step that illuminates the next step, the next step, the next step, because we're shrouded in our own apathy. So this is where we're gonna challenge our own self, slap our own self, tug on our own collars.

Martin P Prihoda (11:52)

and I'm.

Satyen Raja (11:54)

and say, man, I need to wake up and I need to find a purpose that drives me. And no one can do that for you. No one, no therapist, no guide, no teacher. This has to be a personal reckoning. Now, if you do that, here's what I do. I have a mantra. What must I do to live, love and die complete without regret? And every man can write this down. What must I do to live, love and die complete without regret?

Take that into the woods for a weekend and an answer will come. And when the answer comes, no matter how faint it is, act on it, because that's grace meeting your willingness, which then opens up true freedom.

Martin P Prihoda (12:38)

That's beautiful, dude. I love that. I'm gonna write that down. It's so funny because that whole concept they talked about going into the woods ⁓ is really like you just described the essentially ⁓ the plot line of the Bhagavad Gita right? Here's Arjuna. He's on the battlefield and he's scared shitless. Like the whole beginning of that song is, know, I'm terrified. I don't know what to do. I have to fight these armies.

And that army over there, half of them are my relatives. And Krishna comes down and he speaks to him. And the vast majority of that song is about know thyself. This is the nature of reality. This is what's happening in your mind. You're struggling because you don't understand the nature of your mind and the nature of reality. So I think to go further with your analogies, I think you just need to be absolutely sick and tired of your state.

and be like, need to call on this higher power, which is really just your intuitive self. And then really begin the process of self discovery because I think unless you really start to dig deep and go, what the hell's going on, you're not gonna find. The answers that you'll receive will be from ego or identity. They won't be from that Jivatma and that personalized consciousness that exists in all of us, that is beyond body and beyond mind.

Satyen Raja (13:40)

Yes.

Beautifully expressed brother. That's really beautifully expressed. And you know, to add to that, Krishna wasn't just educating him on the higher self and the dimensionals. He was giving him shit. He was saying cowardice, get off your ass. You're a warrior. All right. Don't succumb to your philosophical meanderings or what you think you should do. You are here for a purpose. You have value. You've been trained as a warrior. There's ignorance and there's evil on that side over there.

Martin P Prihoda (14:17)

Yes.

Satyen Raja (14:32)

And even though they might be relatives, even though you might have deep connections and deep roots, they're about to unleash even more evil on the planet. Your job is to stop that now immediately with full ruthlessness. so, although it's a spiritual scripture and there's metaphorical dimensions, it's also telling us that we need to go to war when we need to go to war. And we can't avoid that. And it doesn't have to be outer war with weaponry.

It's the war with the forces of darkness, the war with the forces of ignorance and illusion within ourselves, which then manifest around ourselves. So yes, personal awakening, inner work, self-realization is essential and having a stand that's solid, strong and moving forward in the world, not metaphorical world, the real world is essential or we wash away in nothingness.

Martin P Prihoda (15:26)

Right.

Yeah. And of course, of course the whole, you know, it's such a beautiful analogy because the relatives he sees over in the enemy's camp are really just the shit habits we have. It's like your alcohol, your porn, you know, your social media. Like that's what he's recognizing. He's recognizing these things, but like, I don't want to give up my alcohol, but it's, know, Krishna saying you got to, you know, you have to slay that.

that which is holding you back, even though it is familiar to you like a relative. So it's a beautiful, it's just, I recommend, I have a really good translation of the Jack Hawley interpretation of that book. And it's just like, I keep it on my bedside table and I just flip it open. I love the Gita. Read it, I read it at least once a year. Yeah.

Satyen Raja (16:19)

It's

essential, essential wisdom for all of us, timeless.

Martin P Prihoda (16:23)

Yeah.

And isn't it interesting that, you know, Western psychology is just starting, I feel, to catch up to these concepts, you know, when you talk about cognitive behavioral therapy or metacognition, these these terms that come up in therapy, I'm like, these are things that were written in Patanjali Sutras 2500 years ago. And like, we're just in the West starting to realize that, ⁓ there's this idea that I'm not my identity, I'm not my personality, I'm actually the observer of that.

Satyen Raja (16:41)

Yeah

Martin P Prihoda (16:52)

and so that I can create space and reframe my life, you know, and I don't have to, I don't have to grip so tight to this ego construct that is just, that comes from childhood or from trauma or whatever.

Satyen Raja (17:04)

Absolutely.

Martin P Prihoda (17:06)

Yeah. You talk about enlightened power, power, heart, freedom, flow and wisdom as a unified state. In our world right now, power and heart seem like opposites. How do you hold these two things together?

Satyen Raja (17:20)

If they're not held together, we self-destruct. We're a total being. You know, my philosophy of power, love, freedom, flow and wisdom as the pillars of ourself, it's the pillars of our consciousness, going from egoic power to enlightened power, going from closed, wounded, sheltered heart to an open, spacious, loving heart, going from being trapped and stifled into freedom states, higher and higher freedom.

going from struggle and overwhelm and constantly putting out fires to flow state. Then going from ignorance to deep wisdom, deep insight, deep knowingness, deep enlightenment. And for me, power of the ego is what we see in the world. It's power over. It's the power that wants to self-angrandize itself. It's the power that says, look at me, I'm with somebody, I'm of value.

We see characters of this in politics. We see this in our government systems. We see now through the Epstein files how many people in positions of power have allowed their power to go dark, have succumbed to what the power has given them, and now are utilizing and using other people in the most worst and even demonic ways. Power without heart always corrupts. This is an ancient teaching.

Heart is our universal love, our love for each other, our love for our brother, our sister, our neighbor, our love for our children, our elders. And love is the most powerful force in the universe. Love is the force of the universe. And when we forget that, or we take on other values, okay, power first, or wealth, or success, the lower motive, sex, power, and money, if we enshrine those and not the heart,

then we will surely succumb and we'll lead a hellish life no matter what material success we have. You see all these people that we hear in these files? They're not happy inside. They're seeking more and more extreme pleasures in demonic ways because they haven't learned the truth of the heart. And so it's so valuable that we realize.

Martin P Prihoda (19:41)

And

now there's a paranoia, right? Now they have to defend themselves. Now they have to run. And that's really interesting. power without heart is, it's an obvious, because we see people in positions of power, they're visible. So we can see that ⁓ sort of schism, that self-destruction. But I think what's less visible is people that are all heart and have no power. What does that manifest like? What does that look like?

Satyen Raja (19:45)

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.

There's two forms of ego, if you will, or self-importance. One is the self-angrandism that we all know of, I'm big shot, I'm the best of this, I'm, you know, adding on errors to yourself to make yourself seem more significant, to gain more reputation. So this one we all know about, all the good teachings teach us to be aware of this and not allow ourselves to succumb up. There's the subtler one, which is self-diminishment.

thinking less of ourselves. I'm just a lowly servant of God. Who am I to do that? It's not me, maybe that person. And even that subtle diminishment is another form of ego. It's another form of unreality. Being too much or too little. This one is spiritual people or overly in the heart people. We gotta watch. Because that too is not the opposite of this. It's the same version of that extreme of pompousness.

Martin P Prihoda (20:39)

Mm-hmm.

Satyen Raja (21:08)

but in inverted form.

Martin P Prihoda (21:10)

Yeah, it's like a reverse egoism. Yeah, it's Yeah. Yeah. And yeah.

Satyen Raja (21:12)

It is.

So we gotta

be who we are, not less than or more than, just simply who we are. And that's what society has not taught us. Society says we gotta be somebody. We gotta not, or don't be that person and try to be like that person. Don't be like that. And we're constantly being pushed, thrown in, trying to be seduced and influenced of who we should be like and who we should not be like. And that's all bullshit because then,

We're externally referenced and we never live who we are. And so we got to come back to who we are. And that's the path home. That's the path of clarity and it's a path of sanity.

Martin P Prihoda (21:57)

That's often we refer to yoga as the great remembering. ⁓ know, yoga is the art of subtraction almost. Because we're subtracting the kleshas, we're subtracting the obscurations that have formed ⁓ over years and years.

Satyen Raja (22:09)

You

Martin P Prihoda (22:17)

So that's really interesting. And Satya, you work with high profile ⁓ CEOs. A lot of these people are high achievers. They're successful. What are some of the struggles you see in these types of people in bringing together power and heart?

Satyen Raja (22:35)

Overwhelm exhaustion shitty relationships behind the scenes Unhappiness unfulfillment sleepless nights internal stress Absentee parenting their kids kids don't like them or hate them and and so these are some of the poisons that come with these positions and

Martin P Prihoda (22:50)

Absentee parenting probably, no relationship with kids.

Satyen Raja (23:05)

You know why I like to work and help in those realms because I've been a businessman in my life. I grew up in a business family and I saw how the demands of business and work can pull away our humanity and close this down and keep us just driven to more success and more achievement at the cost of what? I almost lost my family, my wife, my two kids and years ago, you know, I had a drowning accident and I was

By a miracle I survived. When I came back, went holy shit, I'm serving the whole world and touching the lives of tens of thousands of people per year. And my own wife and my own kids are starving for my dad's attention, their dad's attention. And so I let that go. It was a big one. A lot of people thought, are you nuts giving up a big seminar company and all of that? And no, I wasn't nuts. It was the most sane, wholesome thing I've done because now I'm rich in spirit. Now.

I've reestablished and deepened such an incredible relationship with my wife, Suzanne, of 38 years and my kids. We love each other madly and strong. But I would have gone down, I would have flushed that down the toilet with my own ego. And so I'm trying to stop other men and other leaders to go down that road and to keep recognizing what's most important is beyond the world of attainment and achievement. Yes, go have that, but don't sacrifice the most important thing, which is your home life.

the beauty of the ones that you love, the ones that trust you. This is essential. You know this as a family man.

Martin P Prihoda (24:33)

Mm-hmm.

yeah. Yeah. It was was funny because when I was in India, it was sort of going down that road because I had found success there that I didn't think I would find or it was possible. But ⁓ it was starting to be ⁓ more and more time away from the family. And, you know, there was weeks where I just in airplanes and flying and hotels and shooting here and different continents and different countries. And I was like, that kind of that was sort of one of the instigations that ⁓

brought us back to Canada. And I've been very grateful because for the last three years, I've really, ⁓ you know, I've been able to ⁓ spend time with the family a lot. I go to all the tennis practices, the soccer games, the, you know, we eat dinner together every night. So it's a real blessing. It's a real blessing. Yeah. Let's talk a little bit about ⁓ enlightened power, the power, heart, freedom and flow.

Satyen Raja (25:26)

Bless you, brother. Bless you, brother.

Martin P Prihoda (25:37)

of wisdom as a unified state. Okay, no, sorry, I already asked that question, man. I was gonna, I'll edit that part out. What are the invisible chains of fear and limitation you see commonly in leaders you work with? Even ones that they don't know are there. Is this stuff from childhood? Is it stuff that's been instilled in childhood trauma?

Satyen Raja (25:58)

A

of it is childhood lack. A lot of it is not being seen and appreciated for who we are as individuals when we were young. Not being felt and loved for our unique talent, our unique essence. And not being appreciated for the freedom and the light being that we are. And so when we're being programmed very early on to do what mom says, do what dad says,

do what school says, do what the teacher says, do what society says. Sometimes most of us abdicate our true self. We create characters and identities that try to fit into the mold and try to fit in to feel wanted, needed, loved, and be part of the pack, be part of the in-crowd. And that distorts our true self. And that distortion, when it comes from a...

Those who are ultra, ultra achievers, many of them have the corresponding feeling of I'm not good enough. And who am I and I'm not good enough. And they're trying the rest of their life to be good enough. They're trying to have their father figure, their mother figure, even if they're long dead, recognize them and say, am I doing right, mom and dad? Even though it could be a grown man, a grown woman.

There's that unconscious part within that says, please, will you accept me if I'm successful? Will you love me if I'm achieving this? When we can separate our own true calling versus the imprint push that energetic that's coming from our youth of unfulfilled something that's really driving us, that is what needs to be opened. That's what needs to be loved and transformed so that we come back to reality.

Martin P Prihoda (27:45)

Mm-hmm.

Satyen Raja (27:50)

What is true for us? What's success for us? What's true meaning of life for us? Rather than go for success, we should go for meaning. And meaning obviously creates success, but success does not create meaning.

Martin P Prihoda (28:09)

And that's interesting, because there's this whole idea of ancestral trauma that, you when we're children, we don't know that our parents actually don't know, either. Right? Because they're in such positions of authority on us, we have no power. But, you know, oftentimes, our parents are unconscious, their parents were unconscious. And so these traumas that get wound down from generation after generation just and now it's your turn to carry this trauma.

And the beautiful thing about waking up to this and realizing this is that you can stop the trauma. Like this lineage of trauma, whatever it is, stops with me and I'm saving my children from it. And they can sort of grow with a fresh start. And I think that's, you know, regardless of what you're doing for yourself, you're actually giving a gift to future generations by this stops with me. And some families have tremendous trauma, right?

If you look at my family, example, Eastern European immigrants, my parents escaped ⁓ communism. There was no spirituality. My parents grew up in a society where neighbors were encouraged ⁓ to rat each other out over political ideas. You were encouraged to turn your parents in at school if something was said at home. The generation before that lived under the Nazis, Nazi occupation.

Before that, there was World War I. So this is generations of ⁓ trauma and the way we've treated each other and inability to awaken or even discuss awakening without fear of persecution. And now the blessing is for me is that I live in a society that allows me to do that and to be free to do that. So there is a responsibility I feel, even with this podcast to just speak about this stuff because

We live in a society where we're allowed to do that. Still, hopefully. So there's that idea of ancestral trauma and cutting that serpent off. So it's saving your children from it.

Satyen Raja (30:12)

Weird.

It is because we are now aware of how these dynamics of our past and ancestry is affecting us now through trauma and contraction and epigenetics. Thank goodness we're in an era where we know about this and actually can have and create and dive into tools and practices and cultivations. Most important thing is just wanting it not to stop, not to go on and having the courage to do the inner work to deal with whatever shadows of those elements are within oneself.

because it is a responsibility not to pass it on, especially for us who are parents to not to pass it on. So, you know, years ago I joked with my ⁓ wife when my kids were young, I go, we need to come up with two saving, one saving for our children, an education fund for their education, as well as a therapy fund. Because I don't want to hoist my kids then because most people come to therapy.

Martin P Prihoda (30:56)

Right.

Satyen Raja (31:17)

They're talking about their parents. Their parents should be paying for their therapy. ⁓

Martin P Prihoda (31:23)

That's right.

Satyen Raja (31:26)

But you know what? The bigger picture is for me, this is just part of life. It's part of the great cycle of life. No one comes out clean. In my experience, we're divine conscious atma, we're divine beings that come into an experience of restriction. We choose restriction from our infinity so we can learn to unravel that restriction and return to the great remembering of who and what we actually are. It's just like,

Martin P Prihoda (31:27)

Yeah.

Right.

Satyen Raja (31:55)

When we play a game of chess, you know, or checkers, let's say chess, have to, you actually have to make yourself into 16 players and me too. I have to take the oneness I am and turn myself into 16. And then I got to reduce all my capacities, which are huge to just moving little bits and pieces left, right, L shape or diagonal. We as humans can do far more than that, but we restrict ourselves.

to play the game with another in the same way as the same way I look at Karma's same way I look at all our life shit we are restricting ourselves to eventually learn to unravel those restrictions and recognize the joy of our freedom as we're playing the game of life

Martin P Prihoda (32:43)

Right? And then, you know, this also comes down to, and again, this was, this is 2,500 years old, but the whole, the concept of the samskara, the latent impressions that are created oftentimes in childhood, which are really, you know, the grooves in our record and our record spins and it plays the same song and the same song and our actions and our karmas are really, ⁓ they really come out of these samskaras.

So if we can come back and begin to rewrite these some scars or develop new some scars and develop new latent impressions from which our actions can now manifest, that's really the beginning of the healing is just to understand and look at what, where is it like, why are my relationships failing? Like, why am I bad with money? Why am I this? Why am I addicted?

Those are all from some scaras and usually very deep some scars from from childhood. It's amazing how these guys had to figure it out so long ago.

Satyen Raja (33:46)

We're just catching up now.

Martin P Prihoda (33:49)

just,

you're just catching up. Let's see, what else can I ask you here? I had an interesting, I had an interesting dialogue with, I don't know if you know Ian Finn, he's a yoga teacher. And we were talking about the intelligence of the body. And within

within every thought, every emotion somehow manifests in the body. The body is not mind, body, spirit. It's actually a continuum. It's the outer, the body is the outer extension of mind. And you're a martial artist, so I mean, you're very familiar with this, but how can we use the body to tap into the mind and understand the mind? Almost working from the outside in.

Satyen Raja (34:37)

You know, you expressed it really well. It's a continuum. We segregated for communication purpose, body, mind, spirit, emotions, all these things, but there's no distinction. It's all one. We are all of it, body, mind, spirit, and all of it. The distinction is in the mind. And so the body is the mind. The body is consciousness. Consciousness is body. This is ⁓ not an idea. It's my direct experience of reality. So for me,

Martin P Prihoda (35:00)

Mm-hmm.

Satyen Raja (35:07)

It's essential to do body practices because we are living. And if you're discarding or you're not loving and putting attention on strengthening your body, then your mind will start to get weaker. Your essence starts to get weaker. So this is where exercise I do like martial arts. I use a kettlebell. I work out in the gym and no, I like to go for long walks with my wife, for walks and hikes with my wife. I like to go bike riding.

Martin P Prihoda (35:27)

Me too.

Satyen Raja (35:36)

And when we're doing that, don't we feel so great? We're releasing so many feel-good internal chemicals in our body. We're feeling alive, rejuvenated. We've got all the life force moving through us, our blood force moving through us. Because that happens, it nourishes our mind, nourishes our being. And because we have gone from a society of nature to now in front of phones and screens all day long for so many hours, it is, this is...

not the body, our body's meant to be with the world. It's not meant to be in front of screens. We use it, let's use it. Those of us like us who have it as a career, great, we use it. But we actually need to go out and be with nature. We actually need to go out and walk. This is not a matter of health or vital, it's a matter of survival. It's a matter of tuning in to the vibration of existence, not the vibration of influence that's trying to constantly

grab our emotional attention, social media, it's all designed, all of it is designed to grab our emotional units of attention. Our attention is not meant to be captured, our attention is best open and spacious in nature. So to me, exercise in nature, moving with your body, loving your body, really loving the fact that you just even have a body, no matter what shape it is in.

Martin P Prihoda (36:44)

Right, right.

Satyen Raja (37:03)

I love you and I'm going to start taking care of your body. I'm going to take care of you a little bit more. And we got to get back into self love of our body. Not just our total Gestalt, but loving this vessel that we are.

Martin P Prihoda (37:13)

Here's a-

Yeah, yeah, I agree. And, ⁓ you know, I was gonna say, and I asked you what's one thing ⁓ that somebody that feels lost or purposeless, ⁓ or confused and really has no idea of the way forward, what can they do tomorrow? I was gonna say, well, one thing you can do for sure is just move your body. Like, you don't need a plan, you don't need a strategy, you just go out and move your body. And ⁓ I make sure I do that every day and, you know, move it hard.

like get your heart rate up, make it you know, collapse onto the floor at times. And it's amazing if I'm feeling stagnant, whatever, I'll just get on. I ⁓ have an assault bike, which I love. I talk about my assault bike a lot because it's been life changing to me. But if I'm just riding over feeling stagnant, I'll just go to four minutes hard on that assault bike. You know what assault bike is, right? It's got like the okay, it's a stationary bike, but it's

Satyen Raja (37:52)

Yes, yeah, work it.

No, I don't know.

Okay.

⁓ okay.

Martin P Prihoda (38:13)

you can move the arms back and forth with the

it's it's really they use it a lot in vo2 max training and and hit training and whatnot but ⁓ like you know four four minutes of that and man i just i collapse on the ground i'm just you know i'm ready to go four minutes four i get my yeah i get my heart rate up to like 170 yeah it's it's insane ⁓ that that's i call those like exercise snacks

Satyen Raja (38:27)

Four minutes.

Wow, okay.

I love that.

Martin P Prihoda (38:40)

Then I do have a I do have a gym routine as well. But I've just, you know, I've just had to just especially over 50. Right. And you start to lose muscle mass and testosterone levels do drop and there's nothing better for testosterone than sleep, exercise and a good diet. Right. That's your number one. Yeah, yeah. pumpkin seeds. Brazil nights all that. Yeah.

Satyen Raja (38:55)

⁓ it's in Brazil nuts.

Yeah. Pumpkin seed, raw Brazil nuts. Four

raw Brazil nuts every night. It helps nourish the system. yeah, at night before you go to bed.

Martin P Prihoda (39:09)

Yeah.

And you know, more often than not, if I'm stuck on something, whether I'm writing or I'm working on something, I'll go do exercise or I'll go for a walk and it will just like, bing, the idea will come or the next path forward will come or something will come. So that's one thing I always say to dudes, just like, don't sit on the couch and stew in your confusion and your depression. Like get out and at move your body and be depressed. Yeah.

Satyen Raja (39:34)

Yes.

Martin P Prihoda (39:41)

I want to talk a little bit about what what is a man supposed to do with his aggression, his fire, his drive? How do you teach someone to channel that fire? You know, whether it be anger or whatever, be rage or whether it be just passion? How do you channel that in a positive way without being consumed by it?

Satyen Raja (40:02)

First of all, male anger is sourced in a lack of freedom.

Martin P Prihoda (40:09)

Right.

Satyen Raja (40:10)

source in a lack of freedom. We get more angry the more trapped we are the more angry we get. The more low grade irritation builds, builds, and then it gets really angry. So anger and freedom are deeply related because part of the deepest essence of the masculine is the desire, the calling, the movement towards greater and greater freedom from the constraints and the challenges, the restrictions of life. When a man is trapped he gets angry.

Martin P Prihoda (40:33)

Right?

Satyen Raja (40:40)

your anger you got to look at first of all where am i trapping myself where have i volitionally allowed myself to be trapped where am i recreating my own traps you got to get real damn serious honest and all that and take responsibility that first of all yes you might be angry out there but there's something inside of you that you've all conceded to to being trapped

And then you gotta take responsibility. That's number one. And then find your way not to be trapped. I'm not gonna succumb to that. Number two, you gotta get the energy and the anger out of your body. Can't stay in it. It fumes, it gets toxic, we get angry, we break down. Male suicide is huge. And there's so many repressed anger is no good. Get a gym bag, go into the gym, workout as we were talking about, get that energy out.

Martin P Prihoda (41:08)

Right.

Satyen Raja (41:35)

in very intense way, go hit a bag. Learn martial arts, go pick up Brazilian Jiu Jitsu or Muay Thai where you get to practice with other men and other leaders and other guys to get that aggressive energy out in a healthy format in a way that expresses it. Get together with other brothers and say, man, I'm pissed off. I need you just to hear me. I'm sad, I'm depressed, I'm pissed off. ⁓

Because if you don't, it starts to rot inside. Get together, you're a brother of mine. We have our mutual brother, Raza. We chat all the time and I'll tell him, hey, Raza, man, I'm sitting on this and you know, he's such a good brother. He listens to me and gives me a joke or is unconditional and loving me. Hey, I got you. Even just to give you that manly embrace, I got you, man, I hear you. We need that. We need to build those strong bonds with other men.

ask and reach out, man, I'm sitting on depression, I'm sitting on anger, I'm fucking irritated. You know, needed, can you just come and hear me out for a bit? And so what we can do with men is be that reception. Go for a walk, go for a tussle, go play tennis, get into your body as you said, go for a workout together. And that's a way to transmute and alchemize the anger in the masculine. Take responsibility for where you're trapped and stop trapping yourself.

Martin P Prihoda (42:47)

Right.

Satyen Raja (42:59)

Stop blaming other people for being trapping you. You've got a doorway out and that's your choice. Number two, get into your body and get the energy out that way.

Martin P Prihoda (43:09)

Yeah, you touched on suicide and you're right. You know, it's increasing in men. Do you think that it's anger that drives somebody to do that? Or is it just sheer hopelessness and lostness and loneliness?

Satyen Raja (43:24)

hopelessness, lossless, loneliness, lack of deep genuine connection and at the core of it is lack of knowing who you are and your purpose and your Dharma in life. Who you are and what you're meant for. And that comes through stages. When I was younger I wanted to be a Kung Fu teacher. I achieved that over years and then that starts to denature. You complete that cycle and in between there's this, what am I supposed to do now? What am I now?

You got to stay patient in that, go to nature. Like I said, reboot your mission. Then the next mission will come. You live that fully. And then when you live that fully, it'll complete its cycle, its tenure. And then you're in that no man's land again. Then you got to wait again. Go deep into that meditation, that prayer, that sanctuary of spirit, sanctuary of nature. Then you get the next, we keep going in, but if we stay in these areas where we're not sure and commiserate and mope,

Then we spiral downward. Emptiness is an opportunity to search for power, search for your true purpose. Emptiness is not meant to succumb into. It's meant to be a catalyst to say this is now empty. There's this deeper calling in store for us. There's a deep, great remembering that's being called. There's many of us who are being called to the great remembering right now. We're old missions, old values, old stuff we've been doing.

Martin P Prihoda (44:45)

It's.

Satyen Raja (44:52)

feels lifeless, feels flat, feels like it doesn't have the meaning or the value. You're in the perfect spot. You're ready for the great remembering.

Martin P Prihoda (44:54)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. And of course, the challenge is, we have to live and make money and survive in this world at the same time. And, you know, I was having discussion with a friend and I was thinking, you know, it's really easy to make money if you have no soul or conscience. Like, there's no shortage of people to take advantage of. If you're somebody that, you know, is conscious and soulful and has a mission, there's much more, I think, of a challenge

and you become more limited in how you generate that income.

Satyen Raja (45:36)

that I'm gonna challenge that I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna challenge it I get what you're saying in some way I get what you're saying the world you're right is not run on the goodness of the heart all the time but I'll tell you something when people find out okay we've all heard of the you know I have a simple model that my mentor Kevin nations taught me money magic and model what's your magic

Martin P Prihoda (45:38)

You gonna challenge that?

Right.

Satyen Raja (46:04)

It's like Ica Guy, what's your magic? What do you really love? What's your passion? How much money do you want to make? And what's the model that's going to achieve that? So you might, your magic may be whatever it might be, your gift, you have deep compassion, your motivator, you have clarity, whatever that is. You figure out, I want to make 100K, 200K, 500K, mean, whatever it is. There's no judgment on the number. You got to find what's in harmony to your, not egoic desire.

Martin P Prihoda (46:28)

Mm-hmm.

Satyen Raja (46:33)

but so that you can live a life of freedom and joy. Okay? So there's that. Now, what's the model that's gonna fulfill that in the most, the path of least resistance? A lot of us have this imprint of we're mules and we've got to go from mule to magician. And the way to go from mule to hard work and mule to magician is recognizing that there is a way to monetize your deeper gifts.

Martin P Prihoda (46:35)

Right.

Right.

Satyen Raja (47:00)

And to shift the attitude going it's actually the easiest way to make money. It's actually the most simplest way to make money is when you're in the groove of your deepest gift because now you're electric, now you're a beacon, now you're like inspired and focused. Then you got to get good at how to market, how to communicate, how to sell, and all those, but you got to learn those pieces.

Martin P Prihoda (47:21)

Yeah. Oh, you're right. You're

right. Yeah. Good. You challenged me on that one. I'm glad you did. I mean, I've only I've only really in the last when I look at last 25 years of my life, I've only ever really made money by doing stuff that I've loved. And I'm good at. So I'm actually, you know, I'm kind of an example of the contrary to what I just said. is interesting.

Satyen Raja (47:46)

Hahaha!

Martin P Prihoda (47:50)

Yeah. And I'm always of the belief that ⁓ if you're passionate about something and you love something, there's going to be a million people out there that resonate with that. So you just got to find your voice within that realm. It's like when I had that conversation with your son and he called and spoke about the photography, beyond technical stuff about, know, f-stops and apertures and technical stuff that you can just figure out, it's...

you need to focus on what is going to be your voice within this art form. Like focus your voice, what is it that's going to make you special? Because there's so many people doing it. And there's so many people that are good at it, just like there's so many people podcasting. And there's so many people good at podcasting. What is your unique voice that will draw people in? And the more you can find that the more you can make yourself unique. You know, there's a ton of singers, but there's only you know,

Satyen Raja (48:21)

Yes.

Martin P Prihoda (48:46)

I don't know, there's only one, I don't know, Taylor Swift, or there's only one Eddie Vedder, or there's only one, like, at least Sting, or you can, you can, they're singing, but they're so distinctively them that they cannot be anyone else. So you have to get like that with your voice. It's just, your voice is so unique. There's six billion voices, but none will sound or project or have the experience you've had that you bring to the table. So just focus on the story you want to tell.

the voice that you want to project and you'll be unique. You've built a better mousetrap. already, as an individual, you already are a better mousetrap. You're your own mousetrap, right?

Satyen Raja (49:26)

I love it. You're

really very powerful. You are you and no one can be you. You know, there's how many Indian restaurants here in Langley? How many barber shops? It's not the proliferation of quantity that earns. It's the signature of your service. The whole energetic signature of how you serve. Like, like you're one of most incredible photographers like the

Martin P Prihoda (49:45)

Right.

Satyen Raja (49:52)

like the world has ever seen. You know, like in my opinion, you're like mine, like just like beyond world class. This is like galactic class, right? And that's not just you, that's you, you. You've cultivated your artistry, you've made art out of it. And I think what's really important now is to recognize that how do we do that? We've got to make art out of our gift. Not try to get to monetization right away.

Martin P Prihoda (50:18)

Right.

Satyen Raja (50:21)

Take it on as a way of life. If you're an orator, I'm an orator, I like to speak, I like to share, like to teach, I like to make an art out of it, right? You know, I'm okay as a writer, I'm good as a writer, but I'm more of a sharer and communicator through experience. And so I can make, can focus 20 years to try to develop my writing craft and I'll be better at it. Or I can just really express more of my own unique art.

Every one of us is an artist. I don't care what you do. If you're a mechanic, you're a mechanic artist. If you're a housewife, you're a housewife artist. You're a plumber, you're a plumber artist. Do everything that you do with art and everything will start to shift because now it's turned from a professional career into a path of art, a path of illumination, a path of sacred service. Seva!

Martin P Prihoda (51:17)

And that's interesting too. And I think I had also mentioned this to your son. ⁓ Although he was early days in the photography, so didn't want to overwhelm him with stuff. the work I had done that made me the most money, ⁓ like in India, the work that I took to, when I first got there, that took me to ⁓ Vogue and to GQ and to the Bollywood celebrities, that work came from pictures I showed them that...

At the time I made no money. They were just photographing friends and yoga teachers and I was like maxing out my credit card so I could rent the gear to take these photos and I was like, I have no idea where this is going but I love what I'm doing. But it's those photos that got me in the door at some of these big agencies that loved it. you can't chase the money. You gotta chase the voice and the love and then the money will come. And I think a lot of people, the first question they ask is how am gonna make money at this?

or this thing that I wanna do. And I'm always like, well, be careful of that question. Don't have that question in the back of your mind, but don't let that be the primary motivator yet, because you're not there yet. The primary motivator is to find your voice and how to express your uniqueness. Once you do that, that stuff will get you the money.

Satyen Raja (52:40)

Pure gold wisdom right there brother, you just nailed it right there.

Martin P Prihoda (52:43)

Yeah, and that's

personal experience too. And the other thing I would add is, I know this is your podcast with you and I want to hear more from you, but I'm talking a lot here, is that I remember when I... It's to ⁓ really enjoy the present moment of your successes. And this came true to me when ⁓ I first started shooting, when I first was picking up the camera, I was like asking myself, what is like the dream?

that I could do that I know I've made it and it was like a cover of GQ. If I could shoot a cover for GQ magazine, because I used to love GQ and I get GQ. And so then, you know, that was in the back of my head and whatever GQ and then, so then I started my career and kind of like forgot about that GQ thing and I was just kind of doing what I had to do to get to where I wanted to go. And then about four or five years later, I got a shoot with...

Pritik Roshan, who's a Bollywood star and it was a GQ cover shoot. And so I shot the thing and it was great. They loved it. And then they sent me a copy and I was sitting at my laptop doing some work and my wife brings in the package and I open it up and there on my desk is the GQ cover.

But, but then what happened was like, there's the GQ cover and I was like, but I got to finish this invoice. I got to do this thing here. And I'm like, hold on a second, dude. Hold on, man, you just this thing that you wanted to do that you said when you've made it like when you're gonna make it is right in front of you. I had to stop myself and look and remind myself because I was just like, in my mind, I was like, okay, that's great that that's there. But there's this big job that like, if I get this ball, if I get this star, and I do that then

then that's how then I've made it, you know, and I just realized at that moment that there, there is no tomorrow, there is no I've made it there is no like, it'll just keep going until you die. And, and so you got to really take those moments and be like, stop, appreciate that the universe has blessed you with this thing that you have manifested and shown the power of manifestation. Anyway, just a little anecdote from from

Satyen Raja (54:54)

Well, it's not in any

way. It's what I and everyone needed to hear as well, too. So it's exactly what I needed to hear in this moment. To celebrate my successes as well. So thank you for your wisdom and sagely inspiration too, brother.

Martin P Prihoda (55:03)

Yeah, dude.

Like I see the pictures of you and ⁓ your groups that you do around the world and your teaching and your flying to all these places and I'm just part of me is like, wow, like that, I would love that to be part of the next iteration of my life. ⁓ I've got some rapid fire questions for here, Sajed,

Most men are spiritually castrated by the time they're 40. Do you agree?

Satyen Raja (55:35)

Yes, and they have the opportunity to have the biggest spiritual and life hard on as well. They just got to turn the corner. And how you turn the corners, ask yourself, what must I do to live, love and die complete without regret? And whatever the answer is from within, you just do it 110 % and you'll be a living spiritual hard on for sure.

Martin P Prihoda (55:58)

Is the modern men's movement actually making men weaker or stronger?

Satyen Raja (56:03)

Some is making them weaker by overly commiserating in the feminine coddling and loving and appreciating. Men's movement also needs challenge, loving, connected, direct challenge to be the best you can be and to sit down and put down all the shit in your life. We need loving support and ferocious loving challenge to lift us up. Nothing less.

Martin P Prihoda (56:28)

You've trained enlightened masters for 40 years. How many of them were frauds?

Satyen Raja (56:37)

We're all frauds. We all have to just keep trying and recognize within ourselves that truth is a path, not a destination. And take a look at every single day, how integral am I? How deeply am I living life? Yesterday's enlightenment doesn't mean anything today. Yesterday's enlightenment is to inform the wisdom that we need to walk today.

Martin P Prihoda (56:58)

Meditation, yoga, breath work, is most of it just expensive escapism for people who don't want to do the real work?

Satyen Raja (57:05)

No, yoga, meditation, this is the ground floor of doing inner work. You're bringing your mind, body, and spirit into harmony and stillness and more psycho-emotional therapeutic work and being with other brothers and sisters to keep you in a context of continuous evolution. But no, those are powerful ground floor steps that we all should take.

Martin P Prihoda (57:30)

You work with CEOs and world leaders. Are powerful people more spiritually broken than ordinary people or less?

Satyen Raja (57:38)

They tend to be, and they tend to be because they've abdicated spirit and they've enthroned something else of lesser value, of temporal value. Yet it's shifting. Those in those positions are starting to realize that they've built their life around a golden calf and they're starting to return home to what truly is of eternal value.

Martin P Prihoda (58:03)

Is enlightenment real or is it the biggest con in the spiritual world?

Satyen Raja (58:07)

⁓ It's both. It's both. It's a con in the sense of what a lot of people think it is, some exalted high state. But in the truth of it, it's just recognizing our true nature. I am me, and I am in relationship, and I am humble and simple in relationship to the all. It's when it becomes exalted and specialness takes over. I'm special, we're special, enlightenment is special.

then it corrupts and devolves very rapidly.

Martin P Prihoda (58:38)

You've devoted your life to truth. What is the biggest lie you told yourself for years but could not admit it?

Satyen Raja (58:48)

The biggest lie to myself I've told is that

I can attend to the family stuff later.

Once I've checked off these marks, then I'll come back to the family. Once I've achieved this, this, this, then I'll come back to what's most important. That's the biggest lie I told myself.

Martin P Prihoda (59:11)

Kung Fu, Shamanism, Tantra, Jungian psychology, at what point does seeking become another form of running away?

Satyen Raja (59:20)

as long as we're not living the wisdoms that we are absorbing. If we're continuously keep our heads down, then it's shelf enlightenment, not self enlightenment. We're picking off books off the shelf, and that's only informing our mind insight. When we live what we've been taught, even we can try to live that a little bit more, then that anchors us real truth. Real truth is lived, not read.

Martin P Prihoda (59:48)

Do you believe we're going through a spiritual awakening now on the planet and are you hopeful for the future?

Satyen Raja (59:54)

I am very hopeful for the future. I'm absolutely, positively, totally thrilled about the future. We're going through a serious eye of the storm. We're going through a reckoning. We're going through a massive karma clearing. And we have to go through that. We got to go through the clearing, the cleansing, the healing, the undoing of our egoic nature as we move into this beautiful Omni-Win All-Win.

culture and society that we're going from me to we to love of the all. Let's go together.

Martin P Prihoda (1:00:32)

Sat-Chem brother, it was so good to have you on the podcast and to hear your voice and your wisdom. And I really hope and intend that this gets out to as many men and women and kids that need to hear it and that we can be part of the great light and bring the messages forth, man. I'm so grateful.

Satyen Raja (1:00:53)

It's a mutual gratitude my brother, you're such an amazing being. I love you, grateful for you and I can't wait till we see each other in person.

Martin P Prihoda (1:01:00)

I love you too, brother. Okay, we'll talk soon. Bye.

Satyen Raja (1:01:03)

Be well.

Martin P Prihoda (00:01)

Yoga Journal called him the Thoreau of yoga. Oprah called him one to watch. I call him a friend and a brother. Eoin Finn is the founder of Blissology, one of Canada's most celebrated yoga teachers and movement philosophers, and the author of the newly released Yoga Optimized, a decade in the making and one of the most rigorous soulful books written about the practice of yoga and what it can do for human life. We're going to get into the science, the spirituality, the injury that broke him open.

and what bliss actually means when life is hard. it's great to have you on. Good to be here, Martin. I'm so stoked. So 10 years you've been writing this book. Yup. Yoga Optimized. Yoga Optimized. What's that process been like? Well, you know the expression, the only way out is through. A lot of people are like, why are you taking so long to write this book? But it was just comprehensive. I think...

Going back to the intention, you just mentioned in the intro that I had an injury a long time ago, year 2000. I used to do a lot of Ashtanga yoga and I got an adjustment from Pattabhi Jois and I got a really bad knee injury. And that's just really made me step up my game for one, I realized that doing yoga without an intense knowledge of biomechanics and what's happening with your joints is really reckless. And I didn't want...

people to get injured on my watch and people think, yoga is ancient from India and can't hurt you, but it really can. And also there's so many more benefits of the practice that people could have if they understood how to do the poses and were more educated. ⁓ So yeah, that launched this whole project. But yeah, just to write about human movement requires a lot of graphics and.

photos and illustrations. I think it was over 3,000 of those. it was that that was just a massive project. Yeah, I went through it. I'm still going through it because it's so immersive and intensive and I've got a hard copy now, which I'm super excited about. I mean, just going back to that adjustment you got from Pattabhi do you feel that he was not knowledgeable in the human anatomy in a way that would have prevented that injury?

Well, mean, just one of the things I talk about the first part of the book is called Yoga as a Feeling, not just a shape. And it's really cool because it allows me to talk about my journey. It allows me to tie in some philosophy and just my bio and also give credit to a lot of my teachers as well of how I found this new approach to yoga and biomechanics. But back then.

I didn't know that the tagline for the book and the start of that first section is called yoga is a feeling, not just a shape as I mentioned, but back then it was a shape, right? In Ashtanga yoga, and I'm not dissing the system, I did it for whole decade, for the whole 90s, I did tons of Ashtanga, I love it. But it was really back then anyway, so much about like, you've got to grab your foot or you got to your chin on your shin or you got to... ⁓

You know, I got injured a pose called Marichyasana D and you have one leg and half lotus and you have to bind your arms and do a twist. And it's quite like on a scale one to 10, it's probably like eight for contortionism. And I just didn't have the right body for it. And I was trying to make the shape and I got him to help me or he volunteered to help me. And yeah, it turned, I was stoked for about a second until my lateral collateral ligament got torn.

And that was the end of that. But I would say in the book two things. One is that, that ⁓ you need to, sorry, I just thought of my dog as like, but they need to ⁓ educate yourself. So I don't blame him. I never say that I am a victim of a yoga adjustment. This is my whole point is I went in to a yoga practice and let somebody adjust me as a willing, voluntary participant.

but I was uneducated. And that's the whole point is that people educate themselves about spiritual laws in yoga, but not so much Newton's laws. And that's what I want to do is really go, if you actually educate yourself about the physics of the poses and Newton's laws, that's actually a spiritual thing. Otherwise you're violating the first spiritual principle of yoga, which is a Ahimsa non-harming. You actually can be harming yourself. So A, I don't blame him. I was uneducated, but that's why I took.

decades of my life to educate people and make this stuff simple so they can understand it. Not that they need to take two years of kinesiology school, it's just like something they can read. There's an online course that has five, one hour session. Yeah, so it's like really simplified that. that really, I say, I thought it was the end of my teaching career. Like I literally couldn't walk after I had this knee injury. I didn't know if I'd ever be able to practice yoga again. I was like, I will never be able to teach again. My career is over, but.

as I learned, it was actually the beginning of my career because it made me find a whole smarter way of doing things. Right. And one thing ⁓ that I glean from your book that I really appreciate is this idea that within the body, there is an incredible intelligence. And I don't think that's stressed enough in Western society where we don't necessarily view the body as a tool for intelligence and a tool to access the mind.

And that's one of the principles of yoga is that the body is actually the outermost extension of mind. Yeah. So it's a continuum. It's a continuum. It's not this, you know, two compartments, Judeo-Christian mind, body, spirit, separateness. ⁓ It's like a, it's an extension. So talk a little bit about that. Like how, we can access the mind through the body. Yeah. Well, I mean, just coming up from the level of continuum and, you know, most people,

I think it's unfortunate most people associate yoga with extreme flexibility, but let's just start there. And that is that what I've learned is that the main thing that's keeping you tight, like people think, I have such a tight hamstring or so tight in this muscle. Of course, it's from your CrossFit classes or, you know, the way you sit. That stuff does have an effect. But most of what makes us tight and inflexible is actually our thoughts. And like when people, as soon as you

go deep into movement and stretching, you'll realize that it's mostly emotional blocks that stop you from being able to stretch. You are literally thinking the wrong thoughts and that's sending a signal through your nervous system to a muscle to contract. In the same way you can clench your fist or release your fist, you have that neurological control. There's no one making you have tight hamstrings. It's your mind thinking.

my Bitcoin is doing this or why that person leave me or why does this person's kid go to XYZ school and my kids going to this public school or whatever it is, those thoughts end up getting stuck in our body from from our mind. And that ends up making us flexible. so the great gift of yoga is that in order to increase your range of motion. And here's a little meme for you. You need to release emotion. I mean, it's something I said in the class.

last couple weeks ago when I was teaching is like we increase our range of motion by releasing stuck emotions. And so that's really it is that the way out is the same. The medicine is the same as the as the reverse of the problem. So because I'm tight, because of all my thoughts that I contract my body, if I can somehow relax my body in the practice practice of yoga, then you'll find more clearness, more clarity of mind.

And so that's a, I would say that's the like kind of one-on-one level of the mind body connection in yoga. Right. So, I mean, for anybody that's listening that maybe doesn't have a yoga practice, but, um, maybe suffers from a discomfort, like lower, a lot of lower back pain or hips or any kind of physical discomfort. How can they begin to, um, you know, redefine their relationship to that discomfort? Oh, I mean, like we can go in.

more general than lower back. Like, I mean, like what I really feel I'm teaching people is emotional regulation. I call it embodied physiology. Like I've studied a ton about physiology and anatomy. And the reason why is because that's how you access your psychology. So let's say like, okay, we get into how to heal lower backs and stuff like that. But something simple, like everyone knows expression, my belly's in a knot, right? And so

We think that's happening because something out there is happening to us. But the fact is something is happening, but we are physically responding to it. And so like I just told you, the same way can make a fist and release it. We think, ⁓ someone pissed me off and they did this. So now they're making me have this. Well, first of all, I'm not aware of it. Right. But when that's the problem is so much of that tightness in your belly. Let's just use that as an isolated example from an emotion that you're feeling.

The problem, first of all, is people aren't aware of it. But even if you become aware of it, which is a great step in the right direction, then then then it's like, well, he's making me or she's making me tighten my belly up. I'm pissed off at them. But as soon as you realize, no, actually, you are doing that. You are basically punching yourself in the gut. Right. You are giving you you are giving yourself an ingrown toenail and you and only you are the person that can

release yourself from it. And so even if you never step, my point here is like at a really meta level, even if you never step on a yoga mat, the skill I want to offer people is to be able to manage their physiology because if you can change the sensations in your body, then you'll be able to change your emotional state. In the book, I call it Sensation Guided Atunement. And just to kind of link it back to yoga in case that was too general, and that is that

that's the main skill I'm asking people to practice on the yoga mat is like, what are you hanging on to? When you're breathing out? Can you actually feel where you're holding on to this tension that you are creating from your thoughts and let it go and and really feel that clearness that comes in your mind and heart when you release these stuck emotions in the body? Yeah, that's fascinating. And ⁓ I like the example of traffic, right? Because like, talk about traffic a lot because it's it just seems to be

the thing that we all have in common is just things going wrong in traffic. Somebody cuts you off, something's always doing something wrong in traffic. And so, gotta get somewhere fast. You're always in a rush, you have this single-pointed desire to get somewhere, and you're constantly being obstructed in some way. I think the yoga definition of anger is just the obstruction of desire.

obstruction of desire. Yeah, okay, sure. Sure. Right. So for everybody that's driving in traffic, and it's encountering this now somebody cuts you off, you feel and like you say, most of us unconscious, but you feel the anger rising, like, there's a metallic taste in your mouth, you want to, know, your throat's tightening. ⁓ And then you're sort of faced with a decision where you know, you can honk at the person, you can flip them off, you can you can

try to do something dangerous and try to cut them off. Like you see all kinds of stuff happening. But how do we create that gap that allows the space where we can now come from a place of conscious response to that feeling in the body versus just a complete continuum of unconscious reaction that can lead to something dangerous? You know, I think that idea of you said anger is the obstruction of desire, which is good. I mean, I think we just.

start there by expanding that definition a little bit. My definition of anger is that it's a physiologic response to when you have a map of how you want the world to be. And then you put that onto how the world actually is. And you physiologically respond to that. That sends a signal to your nervous system, to your brain, and then your brain labels that as an emotion. right. So there's a book called How Emotions Are Made by Lisa Feldman Barrett. She talks so much about like,

It's the sensations first and your brain is trying to always compartmentalize those and put a label on them. ⁓ But I think if we just started with that definition that yeah, it's actually a physiologic response. So yeah, okay, let's go back to someone cutting you off. Actually, I wanted to say one thing when you mentioned traffic. Just I think the great spiritual law out there is that ⁓ real, I don't know how to use the term enlightenment, but happiness is when you actually

Like, I mean, when I talk about blissology, I always say we're just trying to live into what Mother Teresa says. And she says the problem with humans is that we forget we belong to each other, you know, and we forget we belong to the planet. But that's the problem for most people is people are just traffic. They're people in their way of their desire to use your term where I got to get to. And, you know, they forget this whole collective game that we're in. Right. Yeah.

That's one of the most beautiful definitions of yoga that I've heard is that it's the great remembering. ⁓ That's it. let's maybe plant a flag on that and say, all right, someone cut you off and what do you do? Basically, we got to parse those off into, I would say, there's two different categories. One are top-down tools and the other bottom-up tools. So you probably know what that means. But just in case anyone doesn't, real quick.

Top down are like stories that you could tell yourself in your mind. We'll give you examples on the second. And the second would be to actually have emotional steering wheels on the sensations in your body. So bottom up. So the top down would be someone's cutting you off and, you know, I don't know what would, I have to think about the scenario, but you're like, okay, if I, if I do something, you you mentioned a few different scenarios, but yeah, if I.

do something really dangerous and go and pass them, you know, you could tell yourself like, what's that actually going to prove? There's probably another stoplight in front of me, there's gonna be more traffic right in of them, like, so you'd well you could cause it. mean, you can cause an accident, you can cause an accident. So so all these are just basically prefrontal cortex getting involved and saying, dude, right? So steer your mind, right? What you're talking about really is identification. Like, like identification with with what's happening, like you identify that this is a story.

Yeah, I think well, I think because unless you identify that yeah, it's just it's just autopilot. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So identifying is the first thing or awareness awareness is a yeah. Yeah. And and it's just actually it's funny because we haven't really got into the physical part of the book, but that's dealing with this idea of sensation guided attunement. One of the things I'm offering to people have an analogy of life is basically the same way.

you navigate and actually it's funny you're talking about traffic in your car you have a gps and you put a pin on where you want to be so at all times in our day we can drop a pin on where i want to be emotionally like we can say do i want to be pissed off do i want to be angry do i want to be maybe do you know maybe you're an mma fighter and you're about to go do a few rounds like be pissed off right there might be a time to do that maybe you want to be psyched up for a football game i don't know whatever but

If but don't let it happen unconsciously, just take control. How do I want to live? Drop a pin on it. And then there's two parts of it. And the other part is this is I don't know if you know, I'm talking about here, but I'm kind of unpacking how your nervous system works. But there's going to be incoming feedback, which basically is like your gas gauges or steering wheel, like I'm going too fast. I'm revving too high. And that's the awareness that you're talking about or the what was your word exactly? The

Identification. Yeah. Yeah. And then the other part of it is you need steering wheels. So then I'm like, I'm actually on the wrong course here. I'm not going towards where my GPS wanted to be. I want it to be in a place of joy and peace and I'm in pissed off. So my, if I look, I'm actually redlining, I'm going the wrong direction. I'm over ramping. I'm using too many RPMs, whatever. And so I, I can take my foot off the accelerator. I can steer my, and I can steer myself back to where my course wanted to be. And that's

going to be, ⁓ again, two categories. One will be top-down tools, like the conversations we were just having, identifying the problem, steering them. But then also, just basically having better conversations in our head. think that's a big trick to life, is that your mind can either be a critic or a cheerleader, and all too often it's a critic. Master or servant. Master or servant, yeah. Pissed off or blissed off, right? And most of the time it's pissed off.

And we have a choice to send it to Blist off if we allow. But then physiologically, this is the harder part is to go, OK, when that person cut me off, my God, I'm holding the steering wheel tighter. I'm grinding my teeth. I'm putting my belly in a knot to use the previous analogy. OK. Do I want to feel like that right now? Like, and probably the answer is no, it's actually really uncomfortable. Well, who is gripping the steering wheel really tight? Me. Who's telling me I need to do it? Me.

Who's the one who can let go? Me. ⁓ all I gotta do is just take my hands and just use my motor cortex to send a signal to my palms and go, ease how hard you squeeze. Ease and squeeze, right? And that's interesting because you say, who is it that's gripping? Well, it's your identity as a driver, right? And at this moment, I'm identifying as a driver and I have certain rights and this is my space and this person's violated.

my identity as a driver, right? Yeah, it's like the Buddhist say, you know, to identify as is to suffer as Yeah. So in that moment, you're suffering as you're not suffering as a father or husband, you're suffering as a driver. Yeah, right. Yeah. And then you're to park your car, and then you're going to be in the parking lot. And then all of a sudden, now you're pedestrian, and then somebody is going to come around the corner too fast and almost hit you and now you're pissed off as a pedestrian. Yeah. So like your driver identity is completely gone. Yeah. And now you're the now you're the pedestrian identity. Yeah.

So we're constantly switching between these identities that are getting pissed off and that need to be defended. And the interesting thing for me, just if anyone thinks we're getting like, we're talking about psychology and all this stuff, we are in physiology. But this is the major lesson on the mat, right? When you are doing a yoga pose, you're doing something that's kind of intense, right? And you could tighten up and try really hard and grab your foot and pull really hard and grit your teeth and all these things. Or you actually have to learn how to f***.

physiologically relaxed in an uncomfortable situation. ⁓ so what I tell people is like, you're practicing for traffic. You think you're just getting flexible, but you are practicing for those moments in traffic. You're practicing for the next argument that you have with somebody or the next time your stock's tank or whatever. Another interesting example that you brought up was as in the MMA fighter thing is

know, I have a good friend that is an MMA fighter. He's retired now. His name is David Hill. And I was just hanging out with him one day. And he just showed me a couple of his YouTube videos. And there's this one YouTube video where he was in the ring and he just getting pounded. Yeah, like like blood everything right. And I'm just like, like, this guy's like, how are you not? Like filled with rage? Like, are you? Are you angry? Like this guy's just beaten you and he's like, never, never let anger in. Yeah. And so

The reason I bring that up is because physiologically, he's just getting pounded. It's just like boom, boom, anything that would, like in any situation that would enrage you. But he's managed through his training to ⁓ take on this physical assault to his body and neutralize the anger, neutralize the emotion so that he can ⁓ maintain his strategy or his integrity.

as a fighter and make good decisions. He's like, he's still got to make good decisions. Yeah. And you can't make good decisions when you're raging. Yeah, you'll just turn into like, you become uncontrolled. Yeah. Well, it seems like it seems like extreme yoga that way. Did you have a What's that? Was that the final point of it? Well, it just goes it just because you talk a lot about the physio that you know, the physiology and emotions, how they're interconnected, where it's this person is able to just regulate that gap between being absolutely like demolished. Yeah.

with just maintaining equanimity. Yeah. yeah. It's amazing. It is kind of extreme yoga. Well, a few things. First of all, I don't know if you know this, but I have a martial arts background. used to live in Osaka, Japan in the early 90s. I did all the it wasn't MMA. It was pure karate. But I did no no gloves punching. Right. my God. I got I know that feeling. Yeah. And so, yeah, I'm not anti MMA, by the way. I think it's a great sport.

But and I think there is a spiritual, I don't know if spiritual, but there is like a yoga to it in the sense the same thing I told you about how you have to relax when you're doing X, Y, Z pose. That's a little bit hard. I mean, this is just a more extreme, right? Like level. If that's level two, this is like level 100. What getting pounded in the face for how to manage yourself and discomfort. Right. But I think it's it's a really cool point that you make about not letting yourself get angry. It reminds me of Yoda.

Which reminds me of the Bhagavad Gita because they basically said the same thing Yoda and Krishna and that this anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering. Right. And so, yeah, I mean, you're going through a pounding. But I think that the thing is that when you're angry, you make and you alluded to this. Your decisions are not as wise. You're more you're more reactive and you're not really responding to what's happening in that situation. And I don't have you read a book called The Book of Five Rings by Musashi Madhuri. Do know what that is?

No, I haven't read that. Yeah. Well, lot of people write that down. Yeah. A book of five rings. It was an old Japanese book. I'm to say 1600s. Um, I have to look that up exactly, but, um, Musashi Madhu wrote it and it was one of the books I read for martial arts. And, uh, a lot of people read it for business as well, like a business coaching book. So it's like the art of war that kind of art of war in that kind of, yeah, that kind of genre. And so basically he breaks people into five categories based on the elements. So earth, air, fire, water, and space.

So when you're fighting, ⁓ so when he's talking about fighting, they're samurais he's talking about, right? So when you're sword fighting for your life with somebody, you're a samurai and you're either gonna cut somebody's head off or get your head cut off. Like high stakes. it's not just getting your face pounded, right? I'm simplifying the book. It's actually not too big of a book, but I'd say if I had to summarize it, I'd say that.

The thing about fire people is when they are in conflict with you, they're just going to want to burn right through you. They're going to come at you swinging, right? When water people are going to try and negotiate, air people are going to try and go around you, and earth people are just going kind of stand their ground, right? But so even back then, the samurais, the martial artists, would practice meditation. So that's the fifth element of space, right? That's the calm, the equanimity that your friend's talking about that you just mentioned.

And so that's the work of the samurai is to always stay in that place of space, you know, to talk about the element of space, which is that clear mind where you can make your smartest decisions. And then you can, you're basically not being reflexive, even if you are a fire person and you just want to kick somebody's ass and swing at them really hard. You can actually know, ⁓ is it best to do it now? But you're not just reflexively doing it. You might want to be a water person. Then you look at my home in LA or something.

He'll back up and back up and right, right, rope it dope and all that stuff. And then, and then he'll come out swinging, he'll be the fire person, but he's making those smart decisions. He's not just like this bar bra person that just wants to beat the shit out of anybody because he can't handle his emotions or, yeah. even a day to day, even a day to day interactions is if somebody's coming at you with fire, if you're in that meditative space, you can come at them with water. Yeah. And neutralize that because you fighting fire with fire is just going to be

great explosion, right? Exactly. So you just want you have to have that wisdom to take on that yielding quality. Yeah, I mean, it's all emotional regulation, right? It's like, you said the minds of master or slave and it's like, yeah, it's like, so just let's go back and just quickly summarize because we extrapolated quite a bit but with the traffic thing, again, your top down is top down would be to manage your mental conversation.

and steer yourself to that place where you want to be with positive, not positive, but the most effective dialogue for where you want to emotionally land. And then same thing now, bottom up is going to be to steer your sensations in your body. The tight fist, the gripping jaws, I think we mentioned the forehead clenching, whatever, and so you can actually manage those. And if you can, for example,

Yeah, if someone is pounding you for, you know, back to that analogy, like, actually relax, relax your belly a little bit more than you might find that you can find that clear space. You know, more than that, you know, so basically, you can steer your sensations, that will help you to create the state of mind, body that you want to land in, right? There's this other interesting concept that

that I even when I practice yoga, or even you know, when I've done a Vipassana meditation, this idea of, you know, we're constantly ⁓ oscillating between these two poles of ⁓ not wanting discomfort, craving pleasure. This is oscillation, right? And, you know, when you're first doing like a Vipassana meditation, your and your hips are just burning, right? Because you're sitting for so long, or even if you're in a yoga pose.

there's this tendency to want to escape the discomfort. And then after a certain point, something happens in your mind where you're just, and this is the great realization, I think, where you're just like, what if I just observe this? Like I've never observed it before because I'm so busy running away from it or I'm so busy chasing it. What if I just observe this thing that's happening? And that's really a fascinating thing starts to happen is that, first of all, you realize that the...

discomfort is not a static thing. It's always undulating and changing. Yeah. Even in the mind, it changes color. It changes sensation. Sometimes it's less intense. Sometimes it's more intense. Yeah. ⁓ I think, ⁓ and just speaking to your point of, of self-regulation is just this idea of observing the sensation and creating space around it. Yeah. Is fascinating. It's, it's, it's fascinating. And it's one of the biggest

It's simple, but it's one of the biggest tricks to life. And it's really such an ancient lesson from yoga really as well that, you know, I wrote a book on the yoga sutras. It's actually still sitting in Google Docs, but, you know, they talk ⁓ the term I use, I didn't make it up, but it's the eye, right? E-Y-E within the eye, like capital I. So there's an eye within an eye. There's always this place that observes, right? And most people aren't that aware of

that they can observe their thoughts. Basically, know, the way, the way to look at this is you're in a movie and you're watching the movie and you're totally sucked in. And then someone crinkles a candy bar wrapper beside you like, Oh my God, I'm watching a movie. And you're like, start to be like, Oh, it's me, an observer watching a movie. most people live their life like that as deep into the movie without realizing they're just watching it. watching it. Yeah. And then there's also somebody watching the watcher of the movie. Yeah. Okay. It's like a hall of mirrors of it.

Yeah, I think that's all one form of what you're talking about is is the observer. Yeah, the observer observers itself, the observers. Yeah, it's actually interesting because, you know, with the rise of social media, and I'm actually really into neuroscience as well. And ⁓ my girlfriend now sends me a lot of stuff about neuroscience. And you know, just she always says like that, a lot of the dialogue out there, you know, you are sorry, Instagram wisdom, is that the highest form of intelligence isn't IQ, it's called metacognition, right? Really?

be able to see yourself in situations and respond to things. I feel like that's true. I mean, if you can do that, that's amazing. And I'd love to just give people a little bit more skills and even the book, you we get deep into that in the early part of the book of what you can actually do, because it's great to recognize, ⁓ I am in this emotional state, or this mental state that I don't want to be in, but then,

Where's my steering wheels? Where's my levers and dials to help me to get to where I want to be? And that's kind of the next step. A lot of that's what a lot of, know, the brief reframing and cognitive behavioral therapy is really just about reframing the situation that you're in. Yeah. But I think I still think the Eastern philosophies, you know, that the the Gita, ⁓ the sutras, yeah, like these are just seminal.

works and thousands of years old, there's a seminal works of human psychology that were been written. I think in the West, we're just starting to and even neuroscience, to be honest with you, we're just starting to sort of catch up with it. Yeah. Western psychology hasn't had that kind, that depth of wisdom. It's so true. Yeah. And it's actually funny because people are like, why are you a book about the yoga sutras? And, ⁓ it's, it's really, just, I feel that meditation and

you know, it's offered now, you can work for Google and you go to a meditation class and, and this whole idea of awareness it's made us, I just told you metacognition is part of neuroscience, but it all seems so new. But when I see these ideas, the way they're put out there, I'm like, my God, this is like writing an essay in university and not citing your foot, like not putting footnotes on it. You're not citing your sources. And so I really wanted to write a book about that just to help, you know, give credit where credit's due to these ancient.

wisdom systems that really understood the mind at such an incredible when I read it, I was like, this is, love them. This book was written like four or 500 BC, you know, like, and it was an oral tradition before that. You're like, wow. Even the key, even the bug of a guitar. I love every once a year. Yeah. Yeah. There's, mean, it just such a remarkable book. There's always stuff in there too. I mean, just, just to get clear of like, it's like dating somebody or just having a family. There's always.

great stuff in there, there's always, you gotta kind of, you gotta sift out a lot of bullshit too. You know, in all these books as well. I never wanna say that, you know, there's stuff in the Gita about the caste system and all this other stuff that you gotta kind of, that can turn people off. But you know, if you're willing to look at the deeper messages underneath the cultural things, there's so much there. I even think personally, and this is my own interpretation, but I think there's...

stuff in there. There's the passages in there that I think relate to psychedelic experiences. If you remember near the end of the Gita, Krishna's like, you want me to show you who I really am? Arjuna's like, okay, show me. And then it's like a thousand faces with a thousand. Yeah, a thousand this and he just like blows his mind with just like, this is who I am. And I'm like, this is like DMT experience, man. ⁓ yeah. This is like ayahuasca.

Like, I think there's some sort of religious site, like spiritual psychedelic experience in there. yeah. I mean, there's no doubt that that was like, you know, of some yoga schools back then. There's no doubt about it. He basically just completely decided disidentifies. And, you know, you know, meditation, meditation really is meditation really is a slow process of dis identification, right? Yes. And

I think even Western psychology is coming to the realization that it's really the hyper identification of self that causes us so much problem. you know, you can't release the grip of your own identity and that identity needs to be defended. And identities are impermanent anyway. That creates a tremendous amount of suffering. And I think the reason why we're seeing an uptake of interest in psychedelics is that

know, if meditation is the slow sort of meandering path to this idea of enlightenment, then or disidentification with self, then psychedelics like the Japanese bullet train, right? 100 % just like eviscerate. Yeah, you know, you're gone. And I think that I think, of course, that can be that can be like Elon Musk, Falcon Heavy, Falcon Heavy. ⁓ But you always

My experiences, I've always come back from those experiences with this sense of wholeness and oneness. And I think it's because my identity and my ego was allowed to dissolve. ⁓ I really think, I mean, the practice of yoga and practice of meditation really is about just identifying with self less. Yes. ⁓ And yeah, I mean, just to bring this back to the yoga sutras, I found that super fascinating because you were talking about, what did you say about desire and... ⁓

Anger? Anger? Anger is the obstruction of desire. No, but you said that most of our actions are motivated by desire and fear. think you said a little bit earlier in the conversation. Oh, no, that we oscillate between craving and aversion. Craving and aversion, okay. Which is the second noble truth of Buddhist philosophy. So, I mean, that's what was really cool for me when I wrote this book on the Yoga Sutras, which, I mean, they have this thing called the Kleshas. Do you know what that is? Yeah. Okay. So Klesha, just for people listening, means

The root of the word is klish, which means to obscure. So the same way that the clouds obscure the sun, there's a light inside of you, but there's all these problems in our mind that don't allow us to feel our inner light, is the of gist of it. So basically, why are we suffering and why are we not connected to our light is the question of the klishes in that part of the book. And so they break it down as fivefold. And the first part is mistaken knowledge, avidya, right? But then after that, there's...

this really interesting part of ⁓ how we suffer because, I mean, we translate as ego, but it's really just personality, right? That we identify with our personality. And then what was interesting to me is that, but then if we break that down further, then the personality is made of what they call raga and duetia, your attachments and aversions you just talked about, or desires and your fears.

And I was like, I don't know, I spent a lot of time thinking about that. How does this work? And so again, this book is still on Google Docs. But what I wrote about is like, it's true, our personality is a whole laundry list of things that we want and things that we don't want. Right? Like if I say to you, this is I said in the book, and there's an online course about this, by the way, that is out right now. They did on the yoga sutras if people are interested. ⁓ And that is that if I said to you, OK,

I'm gonna describe somebody to you. This person doesn't like masks, but he likes capes. He doesn't like kryptonite, but he likes justice. He doesn't like Lex Luthor, but he likes Lois Lane. You know exactly who I'm talking about. Like you probably know after question number two, or point number two, right? So this is the whole point is that I'm like, my God, the personality, what we call Superman is actually a laundry list. As soon as...

If you want to talk about who somebody is, you just make a list of what they like and don't like. And all of a sudden you're like, oh, that's that's so and so down the street or that's my cousin so and so, right? They're vegan and they then they're really pro animal rights and they love going to, I don't know, Florida in the winter, whatever. Fascinating. I've never thought about it that way that that our personalities are really just these oscillations between aversion and craving. Yeah. And so and so that's that's that's that's kind of Yeah, when I when I realized I like

wow, this is such a great code. And like I say, it wasn't like they learned that last week. That was written like 400 years BCE, right? And then before that, like I said, it was an oral tradition. So who knows how long it is? Let's say that's at least 28, 2900 years old. And when you said that we're just catching up to it, it's true. Like psychology is just catching up to what these people knew about the mind.

by just sitting down every day and observing it is crazy. And we have so much to learn from it. Yeah. So much learn. Yeah. I'm so grateful. Me too. I I spent 15 years in India. Yeah. Wow. That's how long I was there. Yeah. As it's funny because I went there as an artist and I ended up creating a business. Yeah. Which not a lot of people do. Most people go for the spirit. But in Bombay. Yeah. In Bombay. Yeah. You remember you were there. Yeah. You came and visited us.

did manage to get up to Rishikesh and spend time in the ashrams. so I really, ⁓ and when you're immersed in the culture, it becomes so much easier to kind of study because it's so woven into the fabric of the people there. Yeah, it is. ⁓ It's a beautiful country. I love India. Yeah. lot of lessons to learn. I think I must have been Indian in a past life. Really? I'm just so drawn to it. Wow. And, know, there's a lot of people that come from the West to India that just they get off the plane in Bombay and

know, they take a look around and they just get on the next flight back. Yeah, they're like, No, I got there. And I just, you know, I was, I saw the chaos and, and I'm just like, this is for me. Yeah, really? This is for me. First time like, right. I loved it. I loved it. What parts of the book did you find the most challenging to write? Oh, God.

most challenging. Well, I would say the first thing that comes to my mind, it's so funny because we're talking about a whole other book called the Yoga Sutras. Which I think I really think you should finish that because... Oh, it's finished. It's actually done. Oh, yeah. It's actually done. We can always use better translations for sure. Yeah. Or interpretations. Actually, yeah. Well, I was going to tell you my working title. I guess I shouldn't tell you this stuff. should. Well, let's save it. We'll save it for the next. I've learned not to let intellectual property stuff go. It's got a really cool title that I really like. for this one, Yoga Optimized.

By the way, the reason why I didn't bring it out is because it just gets confusing to people if you're like, it's like you have a podcast backlog. got to just like, yeah, yeah, don't come out. if you launch two books at the same time, it's confusing. Yeah. But anyway, you'll get optimized. would say the hardest thing about it for me again, as I mentioned, is just if you want to make human movement understandable, you need a lot of graphics. And so like I had to write this book three times.

First time it was really hard because it turned out like a kinesiology textbook. Like if you were in- Like yoga anatomy. you were an advanced university student, you would love it, but that wasn't my target. ⁓ I wanted this to be for everyday yoga practitioners. one of my, it's a bit of a side story here, but one of my big ⁓ missions here is that people think, my yoga instructor is gonna keep me safe. But if you're in a class of 50 people-

There's no way your yoga instructor can see you. If you're in a class with three people, they can't see. If you're private, okay, fine. But most people don't. And so if you're uneducated about doing yoga poses, like basically going scuba diving, no one's told you about nitrogen or gases in your tank, right? You're gonna have a problem. Anyway, so first time I wrote it, it wasn't for the average practitioner. It was too advanced. Then second time I wrote it, it was good. then I realized,

that it was showing, let's say, even something similar like a triangle pose. It would show a triangle pose and it have a description for triangle pose, but then I realized, oh, 90 % of triangle pose actually how you get into it. So unless you have like start here, move your hip this way, tilt your pelvis that way. So a whole series of photos, I know you're a photographer, like was a whole series of photos that would show step by step, A, B, C, D, E. Then I'm like, oh, that's what you gotta do. Because otherwise just the end point doesn't do it.

And then all of a sudden all the text that I had written didn't match the photos. So then I'm like, oh God. So then I had to start again from scratch and then to try and line all the graphics up. Like people say, oh, I've written a book too. I'm like, yeah, but if you put graphics in the book, especially as many as this, it literally three X's the time of how much time it takes. just- you draw them or did Yeah, I did all the anatomy drawings. I did everything. That's amazing. It was really cool. It was like getting a PhD. learned. I mean, I thought I knew a ton beforehand. Did you know how to-

were you good at drawing before? was good at drawing before but I was not good at drawing on an iPad. It's actually, I think I've gotten better where it's, but I don't know how to describe it. It was really slippery, like the pen, the stylus, it was almost like drawing on ice. Like I found it really hard to find the stops. I got better towards the end of the book, but when I first started it was really hard. But yeah, loved drawing the anatomy and it just made me so much more clear, so much clearer on everything I was ever teaching and...

I'm so grateful I did that. didn't feel like why are you doing that? It's just that the people who had good knowledge of anatomy that ⁓ could actually draw, those people are on high demand. like, I can do this two years from now. I can't wait another two years. I'll just do it myself. they're expensive. And they're expensive. Yeah, I would have gone, like, I mean, already it was so expensive. I mean, in general, just to summarize that, not only was it hard to make all those graphics, but then to put it on a page, like you're limited to how many pages you could do, it was continuously like, ⁓

best analogy I can give people aren't familiar is to have like more furniture than fits in a room. Yeah. You're like, okay, you got to design this room to look good. And you're constantly moving stuff around to make it fit and all the text has to go here and there. I mean, every, every page, just so you know, it took 30 days of my life. Every page I averaged it out. Wow. Yeah. So I mean, graphic stuff is crazy. Luckily I did an online course that just came out and it literally now says, Oh, figure three, seven, 14.

whatever, okay. And it will start with that figure and then the video will pop up to explain it. So that helps me a lot. But yeah. you kind of you kind of finished it ⁓ just as AI was kicking off. So you couldn't really leverage any AI on it or like, No, but that's the whole point. Actually, I did a video about that. Actually, AI was still ⁓ pre-nation. Yeah, it was there a little bit toward the end, but I never used it. Because I did a

video about this, example. mean, let me see if I can describe it well. But basically, all the, basically, AI copies what's out there. It's a plagiarism machine, right? So at the moment, I mean, I know it's machine learning and all this stuff, but most of it right now is just copying websites and the information that's out there. Okay, so if I said...

I did a video on this, can look it up on YouTube, it's like, I mean, we put it in the show notes or whatever, but Chaturanga Optimized, it's called, okay? So push, like, if people know, it's like a low push-up. And so if you look, I did a post about this going, okay, I'm put this in ChatGBT, how do I do this? And they're like, okay, you make your forearms 90 degrees to the floor, you make your biceps parallel to the floor, you look for whatever, okay, so the whole point about all that, like, all,

It's not, it's basically, those are good ⁓ descriptions, good instructions, but they're not optimal. That's why it's called yoga optimized. So if I would have got chat GBT to write it for me, how to do chaturanga, for example, I'm like, like this, when people do this course or take, the book, they have to forget so much of what they've learned already. In fact, it's way easier for me to teach this stuff to absolute beginners than somebody who's been doing yoga for 20 years.

because they have their old ways of doing it. Like, no, the old way broke me. I'm giving you new tools, new ways of looking at it. There's gonna be some of the stuff that overlaps, but there's a lot of, like basically what I really realized to summarize all this stuff, and I'll get into the Chaturanga back to that story, is that mostly yoga is based on alignment, and alignment is based on geometry, but I wanna move yoga from geometry to physics, about force transfer, right?

Not just the end, and most of the geometry, just to people understand why that's not the end, not my end game, is you're a photographer. The person who said, for example, Chaturanga, make your forearms perpendicular to the floor, is you know who? The photographers, right? Because it looks really good. Yeah, I can attest to that. Yoga is, for me, was notoriously difficult to photograph because you're looking for the aesthetics.

than the geometry, which isn't necessarily what's the best way of doing the pose. Yes, exactly. And so you're always trying to find a way to cheat angle. I was always trying to like cheat angles and what angle looks the best because some angles just don't look good. Yeah, you're right. You're right. So no one really looks good in a handstand. No, their face goes red and pink and all this stuff. It wrinkles up around the forehead. That's true. Yeah, don't do not do a close. It good. Looks good from far away. are certain poses that always look good. Like if somebody can do like a really nice

Bird of no, it's not the bird of paradise. What's the one where you're holding that your your your leg way up here? And you got that beautiful circle going from your ⁓ that's just was not our job. Yeah, of course. Yeah, like something those looked good. Yeah, I hear you Yeah, okay. So Chatterunga was living right to real quick ⁓ and that okay So everyone lost we were talking about like why couldn't I use AI to write this book? Okay, so for Chatterunga, for example would say and again, you can look this video up on YouTube called Chatterunga optimized ⁓ and it's

Got the shows. If I have my forearms perpendicular to the floor. So this is the type of thing I did in the book. I'm trying to find your page number. If you look at the page, I won't look at it right now, but there's a page number in the book that will show you this. And this is what I'm trying to do is again, move yoga from physics to, sorry, from geometry to physics, right? And that is that.

Okay, the fastest way I can describe this and this is gonna go back to everybody's 10th or 11th grade physics. It's not complicated like Falcon Heavy physics, right? It's basically, ⁓ if I have my forearms perpendicular to the floor, it means my chest is gonna be really far forward, further away from my ankles, okay? So the further my feet go forward of the ankle, so in other words, the further the load goes from the fulcrum, okay? then the...

more resistance I need to hold it up. So I get into the thing where I compare it to a wheelbarrow, but I'll just say it real quick. Basically, the fulcrum in a wheelbarrow is the tire, but the further you move the sand towards the handles, the harder it is to pick it up. The more you move the sand in the wheelbarrow closer to the wheel, the easier it is to pick it up. OK, if you understand that, then in Chaturanga, the more you move your chest forward away from your ankles, the harder it is to hold yourself up. If you move your chest

further toward your ankles, then you're lighter. So what I did is I literally put myself on a scale. I can't remember the exact numbers, but I'm gonna say as me as 170 pound man, when I actually didn't kilos, I weigh 80 kilos. So when I do Chaturanga with my forearms perpendicular to the floor, if I put a scale under my hands, I weigh something like 55 kilos, okay? But if I move my chest further towards my feet on that same scale,

under my hands, then I weigh, I can't remember, I have to look up the numbers exactly in the book, I weigh something like 44 kilos. Like it's significantly different, right? So, and if I wanna weigh even more, I keep going past perpendicular, right? Is that weight being transferred to your ankles then? No, it's gonna be ⁓ your main resistor there is gonna be your chest, your peck muscles, right? So basically the... ⁓

I mean, your whole body is going to be under the load, but I think the main muscles you need to engage to resist it is going to be your chest, but it will be your abdominals and quadriceps, all these things too. ⁓ if people don't get it, Chaturanga on your back, if you start on your hands and push yourself away from the floor, it's the same as lying on a bench and pushing the bar away from you. So Chaturanga is a bench press upside down or flipped 180 degrees.

So by saying, here's the insanity of yoga, like why are people ending up with wrist and shoulder injuries all the time from Chaturanga or from doing yoga is because it's based on alignment. Like people all the time are like, I don't need to study this book. I've already studied alignment. Like that's your problem. That's the, that's the literacy gap in yoga is that it's the alignment that's actually hurting us because let me finish this thing and see if it makes sense is that if I have my

forearms perpendicular to the floor. I know on a scale that that means I weigh 58 kilos, right? That that means that it's like going to the gym and having bench presses. And the only thing you can do is bench press 200 pounds. Okay. You only have one option. And so there's no like, I can take plates off or I can put plates on. And, and, and as soon as you play the game of alignment, your forearms must be perpendicular to the floor.

you are making people all do the same weight. I mean, it's gonna be relative to how much you weigh, but your strength is probably related to that. So it's basically like, then we're like, why am I wrist so sore? Why is my shoulder so sore? I'm like, because no one's told you how your ability to resist load can be modified. I mean, it needs to be modified according, it can be modified if you just need to bring your chest forward or back ⁓ and not play the game of alignment play like that's the yoga.

So that's the idea of yoga is a feeling, not just a shape is like the shape is this, but the feeling is like, I want to feel my peck muscles getting stronger, but I don't want to feel the compression in my wrists and my shoulders. And so, yeah, I mean, that that's such a huge takeaway. I'd love to land for people is that alignment is freaking hurting us. Right. Yeah. And, and, and, and, you know, sometimes I do workshops and then I call it physics with feeling like just you can

field, like if you understand the physics, then you bring a feeling to it. You know, and that's, I don't know, does that make sense? Yeah, I mean, it's Yeah, I think I think for any listeners that don't know Cheddar on guy might be a bit obscure. It's like a little push up. like anybody that's been to the gym, you know, and like use the bench press analogy, like when you're when you're when you're benching, you've got the bar, like, like, in alignment with with the rest of your forearm for but for strength. But if you all of a sudden have the bar like that,

Yeah, like you're gonna you're gonna totally torque your weight. The real big equivalent would be if you're doing a bench press, most likely your hands are just below your nipples. Right. But if you're gonna be perpendicular, like the equivalent perpendicular to the floor, you got to bring that bar now over your belly button. And that's gonna be very hard to It's way harder. Like you do do your bench press and bring it down to your belly button every time it's gonna be so much freaking harder. Almost turned into an ab workout at that point.

Well, yeah, I mean, technically, it's going to be like the doubt. It's kind of I love the body, but it's going to actually work your lower pectoral muscles a bit more. I mean, if you bring it up higher work, there's actually three sets to the pecs. It's super interesting. But I mean, to certain people. But but yeah, so work more of those lower ones. And yeah. And so it but OK, if someone said, oh, it just looks better like that. Yeah, that's the insanity of it all. You wrote that yoga is a process of subtraction, not addition.

And, you know, we live in a world that's constantly telling us to add more, more practice, more supplements, more self improvement. Like, what are we supposed to be subtracting? ⁓ The desire and the aversion. But I would say, I mean, that's really it, honestly. But I would say that, yeah, I think earlier in our conversation, we're talking about most of our thoughts are desire and aversion, our whole personality, our whole persona is made up of

desires. And so what you need to do is really subtract the mental dialogue, right? ⁓ I really want this to happen. I really want that to happen. I don't want this to happen. And just, just realize that I mean, I think that most of us are actually more enlightened than we think that actually another way of saying that yoga is a process of subtraction, not addition.

is that you need to just relax into your greatness. Like it's actually not tightening up and getting anywhere. It's actually going, I'm already here. Yeah, I'm already here. I just got to relax and remember. Right. And that's the great gift of yoga is that you either remember or you don't. It's not about getting anywhere. It's like, I increase my access to my inner light, okay, just use super woo woo language.

It's not like that light was ever dim. I just forgot it was there. That's where we back to the glacier. just, was obscured by my thoughts, by my craving, by what I want it. I didn't want it. It's exactly that same lesson over and over again. And I actually, and this is this. If it, mean, so just to talk about from a yoga perspective, the way in is through meditation. ⁓ and people think, as soon as like people meditate, they think, this is this big, heavy lifting thing. I got to tighten up. got to become a stone Buddhist statue. I sit super tall.

Like dude, just get into freaking hammock and sit under a tree, relax and look up and relax into your greatness and you will find, I mean, it's another book I wrote still on Google, it's called hammock enlightenment, right? Like you're actually, if you just sat under a tree and looked up and just saw how beautiful the sky is, you're way more enlightened than you think. And all I had to do was, you didn't have to get anywhere. You just had to relax into it and stop. And most of the reason why we're not relaxing,

is because we're trying to be someone else. In fact, there's ⁓ saying from China that's from the Qigong tradition that says, ⁓ tension is when we're trying to become someone else, relaxation is who we really are. So that's kind of, I think, the natural state. so, ⁓ yeah, that's the process of subtraction. What's your advice as a teacher to... ⁓

men out there right now that are really struggling with things like, you know, their purpose in life or they're going through a divorce or, know, they're having financial hardship. Like, how do you, how do you keep the bliss going? Like how through all that? That's me. Like, first of all, I you know that first of all, I you know I'm in your corner. Right. I got lots of advice because I deal with that every day. Yeah. ⁓ but yeah, I

particularly for men you're talking about? that was a very vulnerable thing to say, man. I have no problem being, I mean. No, it's just insightful and it's nice to hear that. ⁓ there's actually a chapter in the early part of the book and it's called vulnerability equals authenticity. Right. Right. And it's a real big lesson that I learned is I don't feel vulnerable saying that because I know anyone listening to it. I know you're going through your bullshit. I know there's a whole bunch of shit on your plate that you didn't order.

Like you can't send it back to the chef. Or you did order it, but now you realize that it wasn't the right thing to order. But the card laid as the card played, right? So you're like, I'm stuck with it. so as soon as you realize that, I mean, here's where actually we do this retreat called ⁓ Loose Fit and Happy that blends calisthenics, which are Greek with Indian yoga. So I do this. ⁓

personal growth part called Stoga where we take stoic philosophy and Indian philosophy and blend it together for personal growth. They're very related in lot of ways. They're very related. so Marcus Aurelius was a Roman emperor and everyone knows the same, but they don't often quote it. They don't always attribute to him, but he said that be kind to everyone you meet for they too are fighting a hard battle. that's just, mean, I would say that's one of my top 10 quotes to live by because it's true. And so I don't have a hard time yet to say.

Yeah, I'm vulnerable. Like I'm going through a bunch of stuff. That's insane right? Yeah, right mom with cancer all this stuff and it's all right. It's all relative too because You know you study Marcus Rayleigh I said like he he was going through some crazy battles like yeah He had armies at his doorstep and he's like, I don't know if I'm gonna win this I don't know if we're gonna be just like Yeah, I've just ever ever read the meditations and and the fact that he had that kind of wisdom writing from a

a battle camp tent, right by candlelight and just like, you know, probably sergeants come and go and we're fucked. Right. Exactly. Like, I'm just gonna run to writing my book. Hey, the key was on about a field to the yeah, he was on about a field to Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so Star Wars. Yeah. our great myths. But yeah, for men back to that question. Like, do you say? I would I would I would start there. I'd be like, Hey, like

You got to realize you're not alone in this because man, like you look at the people that are having a hard time with addiction. Yeah. Thinking about suicide, that the people are really at the end of the rope. ⁓ They think they're alone. Right. And so as soon as you realize that what Marcus Ferrell is true, like, yes, I'm going through a bunch of things. I wish I wasn't. But if you look at it from the perspective of but everybody else's life is so perfect. Look at their Instagram account.

Oh my God, you have like no hope. I mean, I don't know about, I don't want to say you have no hope, but it's much harder, right? And so the instant that you can actually look at and go, okay, yes, I'm suffering, but that's what it means to be human. That's the first noble truth of Buddhism that the shit hits the fan. And the shit hits the fan for me. don't trip and think that it's just happening to you. That's the first place I'd start with. And then I would say,

like, you know, don't stuff it down, right? Like, that's the, you know, the analogy that people use to talk about this type of stuff is when you, is that when you have emotions you don't wanna feel, especially men have this tendency, they're like, I don't wanna feel that, it's uncomfortable, I'm just gonna ignore it, right? I'm just gonna push it down.

And then it becomes like a beach ball. You cannot push a beach ball underwater. It just comes back with that pressure. It wants to get back to the surface. That's just the law of diffusion. And you're going to, it's going to hit you way harder, right? And so don't stuff it down. And you need to find an outlet to actually move that through your body. So there's another place in the other chapter and there's a whole, this all in the book, actually. had a teacher in mind, I used to study

body mind psychotherapy with a teacher called Susan the potion and from Boulder Colorado and ⁓ She has a term which I don't have to explain because it's so cool. It's called emotional constipation, right? Right and don't make yourself emotionally constipated and stuff that emotion down you got you that shit moving Yeah, and and again

You need a laxative. You need a laxative and you got to some kombucha. Yeah. Yeah. So I guess, I guess that's it. Just spiritual kombucha. Just to come back to the first one. Yes. Not just you who's constipated. A lot of people are. Yeah. Right. So don't think that you're the one that's suffering. So how are you going to get, what is your spiritual laxative? What is your emotional laxative? And there's all kinds of things, but I think that's where you got to get things in the categories of what actually works for you. I definitely think one of them should be conversation. Right. I think that

you need to have, you know, those best friends, those, the bros, the bros, whatever that, I mean, this is the thing about me is like, I'm from a generation where I didn't really talk to my dad about much except for business and sports, right? Emotions. didn't have that. Yeah, I'm the same. Yeah. My thing is very common. think, but I think it's becoming for our generation, but I think it's becoming more common now to have those spaces. So lean into those. And again, just

The other thing is that as per the name of that chapter, as for what got us on this topic is that vulnerability is authenticity. And so like I wrote about in the book, I looked it up. Do you know what it means? Do you know what the word vulnerable actually means? Like from a Latin perspective or? Susceptible to an attack, right? Right. Okay. And so, yeah, I mean, this is.

This is what I wrote about in the book though. And what I learned through Susan, for example, when I was doing body mind psychotherapy is my dad died, like literally when I'm in this course. And so the next day after he died, I'm sitting in the circle of like 30 people. And it's funny because I was really identified as a, we're talking about equanimity as like a quantum is Yogi back then. And so she was asking me, how do you feel about that? I'm fine. Oh, that's okay. Bhagavad Gita.

Everyone dies. It says in the Gita, you should be the same in the same place of peace or equanimity. If someone dies or if they're born, if you get coal or if you get gold, you're in the same place. Right? So I'm good. Peace. Right. And you're kind of neutering yourself a bit. Yeah. I didn't realize that it's like, it's like emotional bypassing. I was becoming spiritual.

I was, you know, we talk about spiritual bypassing, but I was actually doing the opposite. I was actually becoming spiritual, but becoming spiritual as emotionally bypassing, was making myself emotionally constipated. And so she challenged me and said, like, what are you actually feeling right now in your body? What are your sensations talking about? I'm like, fuck. I'm like my heart. It feels like it's made of lead. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, it's fucking heavy. Like there's no light in there. It's just heavy. then

You know, my jaw started quivering, the tears came out, and here's the whole point, is that we live in a culture that says, like, when you cry in front of a group of people, especially men, the first thing you say is, oh, I'm so sorry. What the fuck? Like, where did that come from? And so there's an inherent bias in there that somehow, that our emotions are embarrassing, that we're gonna make a fool of ourself, and using the word vulnerable,

It means that if I cry in front of people and vulnerable, people are going to attack me. I guarantee you if you cry in front of people, there's going be a few people who are like, oh, he's supposed to be a yogi. He's like practicing an echo and everybody's crying, whatever. Don't let those people move. Yeah. think what's also happening is that when you express a vulnerability, like when you cry, there's people that are observing that that vulnerability is triggering vulnerability in themselves. they're like, they can sense that.

It's like your your, your actions of being vulnerable or moving into their own vulnerability space. Yeah, bypassing their defenses and their they start to get nervous. They're like, this is making me feel uncomfortable because my vulnerability and I'm not comfortable with my vulnerabilities. Yeah, they tighten up. Yeah, really, you're just you're accessing something deep within them. Yeah, that's that's maybe blocked or covered up. So it makes people uncomfortable. Yeah.

And my point is to really realize, I mean, of course, this is for men, but it's actually for the double X chromosomes as well, to realize that, people identify like that, that...

you know, people more often than not, they're not going to attack you. They're actually going to help you. Yeah. Right. So I did a little talk about this too, because NCMI ex-partner, she got cancer as we talked about, you know her and ⁓ when she was first diagnosed, we didn't tell anybody for the first two weeks. was, that was the hardest, not the hardest time, but that was very hard time because we were being

I mean, I was talking from my perspective, but I was being inauthentic. I was like literally rotting on the inside, but I have to walk by my neighbors and they're like, how's it going? I'm like, it's really good. Right. And I'm trying to put on this fake smile. you wait because you were trying to figure out how to frame this in your life? ⁓ Yeah, I think why did we wait? Actually, I think that

Or just wanted more information maybe. Yeah, more information. What's the way forward? It wasn't that long of a period because actually, NC was quite vocal and it's something I talked about in book. It actually gets right into why I wrote Yoga Optimized in the first place. I went through a knee injury. I know that's not as extreme as getting cancer, but like, I mean, people come through cancer and they just want to help people. how can I now, like, you want to come through and get a freaking colonoscopy or whatever. You want to just get on whatever you can do to help people. You want to do that. And so

I came out with a knee injury in yoga. like, I gotta help people, right? And so that great, I mean, what I said in the book is that you need to heal loudly so others don't die quietly, right? And so- Yeah, be the light, show the way. Yeah, show the way. And so that involves a certain level of vulnerability. ⁓ And so really, just to go back to previous point and maybe just help put it on perspective, and that is that people, wasn't vulnerable, I wasn't susceptible to-

to attack when we actually told people what was happening, they didn't attack us at all. In fact, kindness that came out was insane. Like people helped us in way deeper ways than we could ever have imagined. And so it's the opposite of vulnerable. And I think that's where that chapter was about vulnerabilities equals authenticity. And I guess we can relate this back to men and just like, if you reach out and say, hey,

I'm through a divorce. I just broke up or fuck I'm worried about my finances and it hurts me to say I'm in debt or whatever. Because I want to be that stud with a sports car but I'm fucking loser with that credit card bill. Right? It's hard to say that. And ⁓ but you're like this is me this is what I'm going through and if you can just authentically tell people it's incredible that a lot of people especially have that tight inner circle.

They're gonna help you. They're not gonna, you know, so don't, don't lean into alcohol or your bond only, right? ⁓ like go and then, then, yeah. And then like find the people talk about it and then get moving. Yes. Like movement is a laxative, right? It just, really helps the most exercise. That's why I move every day. If I don't like every day. Yeah. Like, yeah. Like if you really want to suffer, I mean, to reverse engineer that have your problems, think you're the only one who has the problems.

Don't move your body and sit there and hold those emotions in every day and look at everyone else's life and think that's so good. Like, oh my God, is that ever a recipe to make yourself feel worse? I'm not trying to knock anyone's path if that's you, but I'm encouraging you to do exactly the opposite of that. Everything I've told you. Yeah. Yeah. It's, this might sound cheesy, but a little while ago on Facebook marketplace, I bought, I bought something called an assault bike. Do you know what assault bike is? Oh yeah, I love them.

Yeah, I'm just talking about you. It's a cheesy thing to talk about gym gear. But no, no, I'm all into it. Like, I'm such a he that that thing has changed my life because I get on that thing. And I push myself to, ⁓ I push myself to limits that I didn't know I had like my heart rate and just my VO two max going up and just like lung breathing capacity with that thing's done. And I just just like if I'm feeling

And what it's allowed me to do because it's at my house is I just take exercise breaks. Yep. So I'll be like working on something a bit stagnant or then I'll just go I'll just go do like four minutes hard on that thing. yeah. And like hard like 75 rpms like crazy. Yeah. And I'll just get off. And then of course, I'll just like claps on the ground. But I love us all bikes. Yeah. Because 10 minutes later, I'm back writing. I'm just like, if it doesn't know is the stationary bike, but then you have those levers or whatever those levers that move with back and forth. So you got to use your arms at the same time just to get even more

Muscles, yeah, blood pumping and more VO to max going and and but it's cool because they have 20 minutes on 10 seconds. Yeah, 20 seconds 10 seconds. You can still program for four minutes and it's like, yeah, okay. Okay, this is hard, but four minutes I can do that. And yeah, but I think that's a really good idea to do that in your workday. Yeah, just exercise breaks. Like that's the whole thing is that if everyone just like that's that is actually one of the things that I'm big on these days is telling people like

Or have time to go to yoga class or don't have time to go to the gym. There's this concept called greasy in the groove. Do know that is no never heard that I always forget this guy's name. I gotta remember his name. Anyway, look it up. Yeah. She told me anyways, it is a Russian coach. Okay, I have to look it up. But anyway, he reported the show notes. But anyway, he talks about greasing the groove. And basically, it's if you I think I see a chin up bar there. I'm not sure. Yeah. So it's kind what you're talking about. You can go to the gym and do like

eight sets of chin ups or whatever you do, right? And do it all at once and people think, oh, that's great. But if you are working and you do eight sets of chin ups, but you spread it out through your work dates, you kind of got to the same place, right? And actually that will help you to work better, more efficiently and feel better when you're working. So that's a greasing the groove concept. And so even for stretching, someone asked me the other day, like, how can I really improve hamstring flexibility? I'm like, a forward fold for like 30 seconds. do this thing where you actually do it.

you do it for, yeah, just literally stand up fold over. I mean, there's concepts of duo and breathe and all this stuff that are in the book that will help you but even if you do it badly, it's okay. Not optimally, but if you do it, you'll optimize ways to be better. But that's a side note. But just whatever you know, just to kind of fold over, put your hands on something if you need to and breathe and just let your hamstrings loosen up. I mean, emotionally, you feel better, but also physically you'll feel better and it only takes one minute. And so I do these challenges with

this longevity league, this group of people are interested in longevity, we did this for a month. And literally, they're business guys. And so they don't have a lot of time. like, Hey, you want to return an investment? I you're on I'm gonna ask you to do I don't you're not gonna one yoga class, you just three times a day for one minute. And you put science on your side, you do that five times a week, wait and see what happens. And their lower backs got amazing. They're Yeah, you know, so that idea of taking this, just got excited when we talked about going on the salt bike for four minutes, I just wish

Like I was doing something the other day in our website. It's on WordPress. I won't get into it. like just all the stuff I hate about being a conscious entrepreneurs when when tech support is you and you got like all of a sudden you're like off back up all these WordPress files and move these folders and stuff. Luckily you have chat dbt and stuff like that to help you. But it was like chat dbt is oh it's five more minutes just move this folder that way. Oh that's not it.

move this folder and it became like seven hours later, I had so much other work to do. And it's kind of like that stuck in traffic. Yeah, right. So it's, it's actually really interesting. It wasn't it wasn't that I just sat down like, Shanti Shanti. Let's meditate. I would actually, while the folders were uploading, which wasn't long was like literally, you know, 90 seconds. I would go into my living room. I love calisthenics. would do handstand push ups.

Right. Yeah. Just do a couple sets of like six hands. Yeah. Against the wall or free free in the middle of the room. Yeah. Yeah. Middle of the room. Okay. And I come or like just a couple of maybe do a couple of calisthenic or yoga poses mixed in with it. And I go back and, and it actually really helped me because yeah, it comes back to the previous conversations about like managing your top down bottom up strategies. But yeah, just that whole idea of movement of what it does to your emotions. Like people

It's actually big thing for me. People go to do fitness and yoga and stuff like that for physical, like how they look physically. But if they just really realized that it's an emotional game. Like, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And also mental, like go on a salt bike for four minutes or go do three sun salutations and then come back to work. You'll be so much sharper. Well, I mean, I started going to yoga because of the girls. OK. And I didn't even know what yoga was, but it's just like, you know.

the ratio is like 32 class. This is back in like 2005 or six or whatever. And then I was like, you know, all my buddies are going to the bars and stuff and trying to meet girls at the bars. And I'm like, 6am in a hot yoga class with like 28 beautiful women. Yeah, just like guys, you got this backwards man, put down the alcohol and come with me to yoga. I'm not doing yoga. I'm like, no. And then of course, as you get into it, I'm like, Whoa, like I'm learning something about myself and I'm feeling better. more flexible and

there's something happening with my mind after yoga class, I'm more calm. people get into yoga for all kinds of different reasons, right? Full disclosure, mine was to meet women. Yeah. And I did eventually find my future wife in yoga class, which there's your vulnerable moment to ⁓ which is just authenticity. Yeah, and I'm gonna be honest. And then but what it brought me and then then it was through that that I discovered that this is well, this is actually medicine that I needed. ⁓

But I just wanted to touch on to this, the idea of men, because I know there's a lot of dudes out there that are struggling and suffering. And because the world, think for a lot of men has been turned upside down. I think we're seeing, know, there's been a real feminization of society where... topic for me right now. Yeah. Which I have nothing wrong with.

feminization, but it's been at the expense of this idea that to be strong and to be a man and to be masculine is somehow toxic. So there's this whole idea of toxic masculinity. And I think a lot of men struggle with that, because they're afraid to stand up and say, like, you know, I'm actually proud of who I am. I'm proud of my heritage, or I'm proud of like being strong and powerful and or proud of my religious beliefs or whatever that we're being asked to sort of like water that down and become more feminine as men.

Yes. And you know, we're seeing testosterone levels drop, we're seeing all kinds of stuff. I'm not quite sure what my question is here. But what are your like, what are your thoughts on that and how we can sort of navigate? Really, like this idea of positive masculinity? Or at least promote this idea of positive masculinity? Yeah, woo. And what that means to you? That's a big question. That's a huge question. But it's one I mean, a new relationship. And this is actually, you know, when when

I've been in it for about a year and people are asking me what I'm learning. I'm like, that's one of the main things I'm learning is to, is this redefined role of masculinity. Cause I ⁓ really had only the yoga model before, which was basically soft and yielding. And I realized I was just more of a people pleaser back then. And I've had this real kind of change in how I view the world. And.

I think that, okay, yeah. Let me just talk about it from my own personal perspective. Let me just reframe the question, because I don't want to prescribe things on people that they don't want to live. It's kind of like a diet. I could say, eat this, you eat that, and you could be allergic to this. But just what I've learned about masculinity and how to bring this out more in the way I want to, and that is, it's really about leadership. It's really about, I think,

Like I think where toxic masculinity comes from, and it's not a toxic masculinity, it's like more lost masculinity, is what everyone's masculine side is asking you to do is to really be a leader. And if you don't know where you're going, how do you lead? Right? Right? So even sexually, it's like when you're a masculine man, or someone who identifies with that role, it's like, you know, like the dominant person in this way, it's like,

I did something like, okay, this is something vulnerable. Like even in my sexual relationship, I wrote down, why am I having sex? Like, what is the point of it? Is it just because it feels good? I realized I was kind of thinking like that. I'm like, actually, no, there's a whole thing that there's something, it's a feeling, not it's just shape is the yoga thing. But even sex is like, as soon as you go, there's a why behind this. And I want to feel like connected, like I'm a team with this person. Like we are.

an inseparable couple and together we are taking on the world and I'm supporting her no matter what and that's where I want to be. And so now when I'm having sex, it's like I can take control. I can be the dominant one in that situation. And I know that that just means it sounds like that sounds like the word dominate used to not sound good to me when I was thinking more from a yoga perspective. we're all equal. But all that means is like I have a vision for where we want to go.

And it's not that I don't respect you. It's just like, I want to bring this vision out into our relationship, you know, and obviously, if that's not somebody's jam, I'm not forcing them to be with me. But the fact is that that's, that's our dynamic. Like they're, they're not, they're not involuntarily saying yes. So I'm not saying that every relationship needs to have this element, but I've really enjoyed this idea of like, I've got a vision, like I'm going to make this happen. We're going to do this. We're, you know,

this position, that position, whatever, I'll take control and I'll lead here. And it works out beautifully. I just feel like that's, if you can, I know we're talking about sex, but like just to move on out into the world, it's like, that's what it means. It's like, I got a really clear vision. If you're a leader of a company, you know, that's what you need to do as a CEO.

I want this company to be here. You have to have that clear vision. You got to wake up. You got to think about it every fucking morning. You got to be on this. What is your vision every day? You can't lose the plot, you know, and you've got to just be like, this is where we're going, you know, and, and, not waiver and not be like someone's going to like, this is the whole point is someone's going to come in with this idea and that idea. Maybe you might bend, but here's the whole point is like, I felt for me, I'd be like, you know, even the way around my company,

it would be awesome. We're a couple of ideas. Oh, that's really good. We should do that. So boundaries, boundaries around the authenticity, but boundaries around the leadership to right. Yeah, you can't say yes to everything. You can't say yes to everything, right? And you can't even let everybody else lead. Yeah, right. Like you take their opinions on things, but you're just like, okay, I got to really be captive of the ship here. Like otherwise, you're gonna have way too many cooks in the kitchen. And you have to and I and I think what

the masculine energy gets bad when you're not looking at what's best for people. Like if I was being whether it's in relationship or what's your job, you're being the more submissive person. You don't like where the person is taking you. That's like that's that's horrible. And so that's the whole work is to really go like what is best. I got to bring it out and I just got to make this happen and have that kind of iron will. as well.

Another for me, you know, another trait of positive masculinity is that of the protector? Yeah, 100%. So you know, and that is that is really if you take a look at what a warrior is, a warrior is at the end of the day, it's it's a protector, right? He might use physical aggression if he needs to, but it's always this I'm protecting something. So as a man as like you and I as men, we have to protect ourselves, right? We have to protect our mind, we have to protect your body, you have to protect your spirit, you know, what we allow to enter into our into our

that sanctum, what we put in our bodies, what the media we consume, and then what we put into our souls, right? And how we use that to observe the world and whatever. So to me, unless you have those three pillars strong, you will not be an effective leader or one that will... It's like I always say, the most important relationship you're ever gonna have in your life is the one you have with yourself.

And every relationship that you have in the world will be a direct reflection of that one relationship, the one you have with yourself. So if you're going to be effective or if you're gonna be a leader, if you're gonna be who you wanna be, you need to do everything you can to strengthen that primary relationship first. You can't strengthen your marriage. You can't strengthen your relationship with your friends or your boss until you get shit sorted out in yourself. And what that does then is if you are in...

And if you strengthen that relationship, and if you get that really strong through like self love and compassion and forgiveness of self, then all of a sudden, when things do get tough, you're like, at the end of the day, I still have me. And I'm my best friend. And I know I can count on myself. And I think a lot of people get depressed or get anxiety and suicidals because they don't, they're not like, hey, man, we got this together. You and, you know, like us, me and myself and I.

And it is one place I was thinking about when you said that is just how we move. Like I think about my exercise practice. That's part of it. Body, right? Keep the body. You got to keep the body strong. Yeah. Exercise is such a huge pillar. It's such a, it's such a diet, exercise, sleep. keeps the body strong. It makes you feel better. All that stuff. But it actually trains your mind for more of what we're talking about now. Right? Like, um, some, another shift that happened to me in the last three years, I would say, is I started to include more calisthenics. Right. Right. Um,

And if people know what calisthenics means, it's basically all the hard stuff in yoga. You know, like, not just are you doing handstand, but now as I mentioned, you're in handstand push ups. Now you bring your body exactly parallel to the floor and pushing back up and it requires insane strength. But it also, but you're generating that tapas, that fire of discipline, the fire of discipline that burns away, which is, is, which is the masculine energy that we're talking about. Like, I really want this, like,

Um, you know, I, I mean, I mentioned the woman I'm dating right now and it was not even an immediate yes right away for her. She was going through a breakup, but I really felt like this beautiful connection with her and I was doing the calisthenics and I, and when I was practicing a front lever, which people know it's like you basically go in a chin up bar and you got to hold your torso parallel to the floor as you're hanging from the bar. And you might look at like super easy.

But it's like one of the hardest things I've ever done in my life. Like it's basically when you do it, feels like your arms are being ripped off by a gorilla. what the physics of it is just insane. How much pull like the if I wanted to get people really strong, it's stop going to the weight room. Just look at these guys who go in the rings every day. They're freaking jacked. Yeah. And they're monsters like that type of stuff is incredible. Anyway. So the whole point is I started incorporating more of that stuff. And one of my

mantras were like, was when I was holding on to that, like, I will fight just as hard to do this shape as I will to be with this person. Right. And so that ability to fight for something to not only not just be a protector, but like to fight for what you actually want to is is so important. Yeah. Yeah. And, and that's, and that's what it means to be a strong masculine leader as well. And so leadership protection. Yeah. Fighting for fighting for what you believe. And so I don't know if you got it, but it's like,

what you're actually doing. Let's say you don't do calisthenics. Let's just say it's like, I'm do one more bench press, or I'm gonna do ramp up that much more on my salt bike, whatever. Those types of things not only make you feel better, but they help to program who you are. You said like your words were how I am. ⁓ The only thing that ultimately matters.

is my relationship to myself that not ultimately but that's where we start. And then all other relationships ripple out. In fact, that's where blissology logo is all about. But so much of that my point if I lost anybody there is that so much of that is shaped for me at least by how I do my movement practice. Yeah, it's fascinating. Yeah. I love that Ian that you're you're use the body to access the mind like that. Yeah, I think it's one of the it's one of the great teachings of yoga is that I think the sages

early on as well realize that it's very difficult to access the mind through the mind. They said it's like trying to touch your pinky with your pinky. Yeah. And so that we had now we have I see Alan Watts. Alan Watts said that. Yeah, did I want to say that? Yeah. So I used to be a huge Alan Watts. ⁓ I think he also said to bite your own teeth with your teeth. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Something like that. And then. And so now we have this, this gross body that's dense, but that we can feel and we can use and we can manipulate as a tool to access this inner

sanctum that's in a realm. yeah, it's all Yeah, it's no, I'm totally agreeing with you. Because that's that's one of the things that really interested about me about having you on is that I'm a big believer in using the body and the sensations to help identify thinking and at least, you know, and then and then using meditation and yoga to just create space in the body create space in the mind creates space in the body and yoga is really about creating space to you are you creating space? Yeah. And and and that's what I mean, this is one of the things that I'm

really bringing it back to yoga that I have a hard time explaining to people who don't especially unfamiliar with the practice. Like, let me give you a quick example. Let's say, you know, like five years ago, I was going to teach in London, England, crossing the border. And the guy customs goes, what do you do? I'm like, I'm here to teach a yoga workshop because oh, you turn people into pretzels. I'm like,

I know that's the I mean, I just want I want to send him this podcast of like, No, you don't believe you don't. If you think I'm just here to turn people into contortionists, and that's it. Like, there's no, like, that's a that's like such a small benefit. Like, I feel that's maybe 2 % of what I'm doing, you know, and it's so it's so hard when people think 2 % of what I'm doing is 100 % of what I'm doing, and they label it like that. Because in the West, yoga is completely identified with a physical practice. Yes, I'm going to yoga. But really, yoga, yoga from a

from a philosophical or like a spiritual ⁓ definition is really the yoking between personalized consciousness, the Jivaatman with the greater consciousness Brahman. And what's stopping that is the identity and the ego and the kleshas and the accumulation of ⁓ negative habits or whatever, right? So we're really, this is the process of bringing the veil or bringing down the wall that can unify the two consciousnesses.

the two spiritual. Yeah. The God within and the God without. Yeah. mean, that's really what yoga is. Here's what I really realized when I wrote the book on the yoga sutras about that is that, and it has different paths, know, there's non-dual-dual. I won't get into that. But what I really, what was really cool to me when I realized about the, I actually realized that the word yoga, when I wrote the yoga sutras, is not even the best because

the term yoga as you know, but maybe everyone doesn't means yoke as you just talked about in that first two like an ox, this is an old upon a shot, but there's an ox and ox cart. And so the way you link an ox and ox cart together is through basically a harness, right? So that is a yoke, you yoke the ox to the ox cart, and then that's now one thing. But before there was an ox and ox cart, if the ox walks one way, the cart doesn't go with it, but now they go together. Okay, so they're one thing. However,

What I realized is that's actually a nice way of looking at things, but it's even more what we were talking about before about relaxing into your greatness or you're always a process of subtraction. Like you don't have to get out there with some other consciousness. It's basically like the way I looked at it is this consciousness is like an energy, like electricity. And so you, we all know that your body is a live wire. Like it's so full of sodium, potassium pumps. It's crazy how much electricity is inside of you. you know.

like, ⁓ you know, getting close to like a lightning bolt, like how much how much electric I mean, luckily, it's contagious charges balance. But like, ⁓ but the point is, is that there's a lot of electricity inside of ourselves, right? Everyone knows that. That's how we think that's how we move our fingers, whatever. Okay. But you weren't thinking about that a minute ago. But the fact is, it wasn't like, all of a sudden, I thought about it. And then I linked up with some thing called electricity. It's not out there at all. It's like, you just remember like,

have so much electricity inside of me. And really, that's even more like, wow, like I have this energy inside of me the same way I have electricity, I just got to remember. Yeah. And that's, that's even more just like, just, just relax into it. Yeah. less drama, more prana. Y'all might just drop it. Yeah. I love the blissed off. Don't be pissed off. You pissed off. Yeah. So true.

I really, ⁓ you know, like I do these podcasts for for people who are wanting more of the light. Yeah. And because I'm a man and because you know, ⁓

my I have my guy friends and all that. And I have a very intimate relationship with what it's what it is to be a man that I, I tend to skew towards men's health a little bit more. Because I think men need it. No, don't think we have the support structure that women have even, you know, in terms of like women. Like, like Tonya so good about every week, she's got some woman circle where she's going to some do some stuff with women and whatnot. And I think men just don't, by nature of who we are, we don't we're not we don't

gravitate towards that as much. Yeah. So if you know, if there can be a podcast that sort of talks about some of the shit that that meant just even even if somebody listens to this and goes like, Wow, really, I'm not alone. And I've got some good little steps that I can take to go even deeper into myself. I think the other part too is that other men are talking about this stuff that even that just like, you know, well, other thing is to like, you know, who's our as a man?

Who are our role models? Like, I don't know if you were to make a list of who's a really, who's a man I aspire to, right? I'm sure I could think about it. I just don't know anyone off the of my head. Do they have to be alive? No, no. I know they're out there. I'm just trying to say that there's a lot. I mean, I could kind of nitpick. would like, you know. Mr. Rogers? No, maybe something, yeah. Mr. Rogers' love of community.

But he was like, he went and testified in front of Congress and stood up for what he believed in. That's true comes across as a gentle guy, but he was cool. I kind of grew up with him though. So yeah, yeah. I like Mr. Rogers, but this guy's so nice. Yeah, he's kind. He really stresses kindness. Totally, totally. ⁓ But yeah, I would want I want to mix Mr. Rogers with someone who kicks ass like, yeah, some kind of martial arts thing in there as well. You know, like, just

Yeah, warrior warrior. Not that you need to but just to know that you could like I would I would like go Mr. Rogers but like jacked Mr. Rogers. Yeah. Yeah, like a jack Mr. Rogers. Yeah, I don't know. But also, yeah, I don't know. I'd love to see the way they treat their relationships and their kids and stuff too. Right. It's like, Yeah. And yeah, no, it's a huge topic for me too, because

It's actually, wrote about this in the Yoga Optimized book as well. I know we're just wrapping this up for maybe this last point. And that is that love is the greatest gift of the universe. And it's not only feminine. Like there's a real male way. And even for people who identify as males, whatever, like that actually is a unique way of loving that's different, you know? And.

I don't know when I hold my son's hand or give him a hug. I actually don't feel more feminine. I actually feel more like a man. Yeah. Do you know like that's awesome. But me too. But that's not the way we conceptualize the world. Like there's a there's a and so just we don't have a good playbook when you think about it. Right. Yeah. It's it's like I think I'm the same as you is like when I when I hug my kids. The the feeling I get is is

Definitely love but also this well the protector I think you're talking about, right? Yeah, just but but also leadership and just just the honoring of my position as a leader and as a protector of this family like my my You know, of course like my relationship to myself and my own self growth is is key but protecting and supporting and leading my family is like 99 % of my mental. Yeah capacity in space

Yeah, like everything every decision I make, even if it's seemingly not related is somehow relates back to my family. Yeah. And that relates back to me as a person who I am. Yeah. Yeah. Like like, like the blissology. Yeah, like, you know, family yourself. Yes, family. Yeah, friends. And then eventually how you treat nature. So time just increases conversation going to get super vulnerable and talked about my relationship I had for so many years. But I mean, I think the fastest way I can say it is that I have

I had a vision for my business where it would flourish the best and involved living in the tropics and having a retreat center, this and that. ⁓ But at a partner that wasn't into that vision and she was looking for something else more, it was a nice vision as well, more ⁓ neighborhood where the our son can bike around stuff like that. And I mean, this is what I really learned about

again, this masculine leadership energy is like, I, I, I know, I look back, I think I was more in touch with my yoga side, which may be called feminine, but I was like, happy wife, happy life. If I just make her happy, then I'll build my life around it. But what I did is I actually ended up moving to a place where my business didn't work at all. Like it, like I make my living by bringing groups of people on a retreat. And I wanted to own

real estate, where people could come to a retreat center and do these programs. But I moved to a city that was very expensive and like it just didn't work at all. Because that was the vision to like all the kids can bike around here. There's good schools or whatever. And, and I, I look at it and go, that was just so dumb. Like it actually what city are you talking about? Well, I would move to Victoria, Victoria. Yeah. And yeah.

I'm not saying that's not a good city. I'm just saying it's not the best city for my business. You'd moved there from Vancouver. We guys were in Vancouver, right? Oh, God, we were in Vancouver up until 2010. And then we've kind of been this mission to move to a whole bunch of places. We moved over to Fino and you clue off for a bit. And then we moved to Santa Cruz in California and then because I to Vancouver and then kind of Victoria was the compromise. But but the whole point is, I mean, and again, it's not that's not a good place. It's just

I wanted to buy a center. I'm not going to buy a place in Victoria is way too expensive. It's really hard for people to get there. It just like to try to try and like I ran a program there once and my friend came from Colorado was like, dude, it's $350 a night to stay at the holiday in, you know, like, that was years ago, too. Right. And so just there's a whole bunch of handicaps they had for my business. And actually,

put a ton of stress on my relationship. ⁓ And frankly, it's one of the reasons why we ended up getting divorced, right? And so when I look back on my life, mean, I realized that basically time machines don't go backwards, they go forwards. That's the only time machine that we really have that works. So all I can do is go, I can learn from that.

And what and it comes back to that masculine energy is like, I was not the leader I needed to be. had a vision for what we need. I knew what we needed to do. But I was I let too many cooks come into the kitchen and be like, No, we'll do this. And I'll just and I just and I basically realized that I was banking on hope, right? Like, I'll just move to this place. I know my business and work there. But I'll somehow work it out. Once she's happy. And it actually ended up being the opposite the opposite.

And, you know, this is a super vulnerable moment, but it's an authentic moment, but it want people to learn from it. It's like, that's what it means to be a leader is like, if I could, if I could go back and do it again, it's not that I live in regret, I live out of learning. But if I could go back and do it again, or if I could advise people, it's like, know what your vision is, right? And even like, what is best for my business, you know, and this is, it's really tricky, because most people are in

conscious entrepreneurs like we are, but especially if you're a conscious, if you're working for some company and you work for a corporation, it's not so important where you live, like will my, it's basically like seeds, like I need certain soil and if I have these mango seeds and bring them to a certain northern climate, they're not gonna grow. And so I really put myself, I realize I put myself in the place where I'm living where these seeds.

for my business don't grow here. And I'm like, just reinvent and all this stuff. And I'm like, God. So yeah, this clarity of vision and clarity vision and to not be afraid of that. ⁓ So I call it masking of that leadership side and be like, hey, I got my family's best interest in mind here. You got to trust me. That's what I mean. You have to trust your captain here. Like we're going to do this. And just be open with that dialogue with your partner. think if you're open with it, then.

there should be some sort of like, see what I see what your objections are. But this is like my vision and lay it out for them. Yes. And then they can see that this is the vision, unless you have a better vision that can get us to where we need to go. That's better than mine. I'm open to that too. But so far, I'm the one with the has the vision. Yeah. Well, so you see, yeah, but here's the hard thing is that that doesn't necessarily mean it's gonna be the man. It either it is hard because like, it's hard not to use the word dominant and submissive in these terms or whatever, like who's who's gonna give up their dreams, right?

And then, you don't want to be in the situation where all of a sudden we're moving back to the 1950s where the man just has all the say in the Just whatever. so just do what I say. And like, there's no question about it, right? But, you know, I don't know, this is way too much information people need. But when I look back at what I could have done or what I would do in the future, it would just be like, I would have just made, I think, and this is what you got to do for all this stuff, is emotions are so charged.

It's kind of, and that's problem with our own minds, our emotions are on charge. We can't see things objectively. And I would just literally put things on a spreadsheet and go, hey, here's how much it to go to school. Here's how much I will make if we do this. Here's how much the income is. Here's what our bottom line will be. This will be the life that we can afford. This is our lower chakras, to use the word in yoga in place. be like, this is what will happen if we choose this path. I mean, not a guarantee, but most likely.

Most likely scenario odds are if we do this path, then okay, we'll have this as this boat. This this thing called income is going to be compromised, right? And like, what's that going to do for us? Yeah. You know, and like, and maybe and maybe there is a way to tweak the formula. Like this is the vision where we're doing this. Is there any way this can happen in this place where you want to live? And if not, then like, we gotta go back to this plan. Right? Yeah. It's funny how we have to bend around money sometimes, oftentimes.

how to bend around the bend around money. Like, it's it's it's it's it's it's funny because money is such a it's like such this magical. It's like this magical energy that's generated from effort. Yeah, and energy. But ⁓ we just have to like so much of the mindscape goes around. How am I going to generate this energy? Yes. Yeah. Well, I think I think with money, you know, here's the whole thing. It's interesting to tell you this, but I had a point in my life.

I to do martial arts and then I got one of the guys I trained with in Osaka, Japan. One of the guys I trained with, he wanted help building subdivisions. So it's kind of a cool story, but I'll make it short. And that is that I ended up building subdivisions in Osaka, Japan with Canadian building material. So, yeah. So basically the point is, I made a ton of money. This is like mid nineties. Okay. I made a ton of money doing that, but you know what's missing? Purpose. Right.

And this is the like if and so what I realized is that making money is actually not super hard, especially if you don't have a conscious. It's easier. But actually to try and do it with a purpose. my God, that is so that's way harder. Right. And so that's ⁓ but the reward if you can make money with a purpose. Yeah, that's that's like the sweet spot. That's I think where

we really got to aim things. And I just wish more businesses had, you know, especially a higher purpose, right? That's where we got to move the world more. I always think that, you know, I'm not so far off on the fringes of society that if I think something's a good idea, if I think something's good, and it's coming from a place about that decidian truth, there's going to be 500,000 people out there in the world that also think it's good. I just have to figure out how to be a leader in that space. Yes. And how to present this idea to other people.

Yeah, 100%. There's so many people in the piece that say some people in the world that Yeah, like, if you you like it, someone else is gonna like it. Yeah, unless you're so freakishly on the spectrum way out there that there's like, not many people that are into that. And it doesn't have to be everybody. You know, if you have if you have point, 0.2 % of the people on the planet that like your idea. Well, like, my ideas, you know, like my ideas, just, you know, how can how can we

How can we strengthen the relationship to ourselves so that that can radiate out into the world and to make us better people? It's a very basic concept, but there's many facets of that, but that's my central mission. It's starting, develop the relationship with yourself. Stop trying to fix your marriage, stop trying to fix your friendships or your boss or whatever. Just like, let's go inward and like, how are we gonna fix this thing called the relationship with self? Because everything will flower from that. You can't.

Yeah, so I think I think you can see it's not that you're stopping fixing your relationship, but stop doing that first. Yeah, exactly. That's not step A, that's steps D, you know, as yogis as yogis and our people that are that are intuitive and conscious, like you look around the world and you see how somebody treats another person, I can tell you exactly what that person thinks of themselves or what their relationship is like with themselves 100 %

if you're in tune with yourself, and if you're if you have developed that self love and consciousness within yourself, that relationship with yourself, it is going to be near impossible to treat someone like shit. Yeah, you can have boundaries when somebody and say, Hey, man, like you cross the boundary, like, but you can do that in a way that's loving. Yeah, but to treat disrespect somebody to treat them like garbage, treat them like crap. Yeah, or to be a bully. Yeah, that's I that's like, you're projecting what's happening in you. Yeah, when I watch you do this to this other person.

Yes, like this is how you treat yourself at night. This is the unconsciousness, the ignorance, the just the self hate. Yes. I'm with you 100 % you know, it's like so you can you can see it in people. And so then you can develop, you can develop compassion towards that because yes, you're being an asshole to that person. But you're being an I can see that you're being an asshole yourself. Oh, yeah, it doesn't need to be that way. I'm going to show compassion towards you. And then now you become a compassion. That's how compassion starts. Yeah.

is when is when you are talking about like understanding? Well, just understanding the pain they're in. Yeah. Or like treating the environment like crap or just like, like, like, even just like simple act like just literally just not caring. Yeah. It's just like, what are you littering within yourself? How are you talking to yourself? Like, what is your relationship with yourself? Yeah, if you're acting this way, because everything's everything ripples out, right mind into the body out. Yep. Yeah.

And these are the lessons about need like, let's start to let's start to really go in and be vulnerable and strengthen this relationship we have with ourselves so that we can radiate out. Yep. Yeah, that's what our whole Blissology symbols about too. I agree. And yeah, I mean, that I'm with you so much. I think we're aligned. Yeah, we're totally aligned. Yeah, tuned. Yeah.

I was a very, yeah, very honored that you come on and share your book and I can't wait to

You got to sign that thing for me. yeah, well for sure to take that home and I know Tonya is gonna love it because she's Book is yoga optimized and the course is yoga optimized. Yeah, the websites Blissology.com and yeah, we'll get that in Blissology Yeah. Yeah, let's Blissology Yeah. All right, brother right on. All right. Peace everybody. Good luck out there. Be kind to everyone you meet for they too are fighting a hard battle. Give them a shaka and a hug. Amen.

Martin P Prihoda (00:01)

Welcome to the Odyssey and Alchemy, a space to explore the journey inward and the transformation that unfolds from it. I'm your host, Martin Perhota, and my hope is that these conversations help light the path towards wholeness, connection, and a deeper sense of shared humanity as we navigate this fast-changing exponential age together. Here, you'll hear from inspiring voices in the physical, mental, and spiritual wellbeing space, people who are helping shape a more mindful and meaningful future.

If you enjoy what you hear, please like, subscribe and share. I'm so glad you're here. Let's dive in.

Martin P Prihoda (00:33)

Welcome to the Odyssey Alchemy podcast.

martin p prihoda AI (00:51)

Imagine producing melodies that...

Martin P Prihoda (00:52)

propel the Little Mermaid to Oscar glory, score sultry rhythms of the Mambo Kings, and helm the music for blockbusters like Titanic and Avatar. That's the extraordinary legacy of Robert Kraft, award-winning composer, producer, and former president of Fox Music. Today, we dive into his journey from New York songwriter to soundtrack maestro, uncovering the passion, persistence, and pure magic that turned notes into cinematic gold.

Get ready to be inspired by a man whose music has touched millions. Welcome Robert Kraft. I could never compete with the poetry of that intro. I love the intros. They're like my favorite part of the podcast. Yeah, it was really amazing. ⁓ And I never tell people the intro. They have to sit and listen to it. I get credited with

sometimes writing the Little Mermaid songs. produced them. I always think, wow, if Alan Menken is dialing around on his podcast and hears, wait, he, I wrote those melodies. Yes, he did. I had the great good fortune of sitting with him and Howard Ashman to

discuss how to produce them, how to get, you know, the crab to sing under the sea and whatever it was, we went through all of it. then I they hadn't had the experience yet. And they have now all these years later of how to record songs and soundtracks ⁓ because they came directly to Disney out of theater. So I was thankfully.

The head of music at Disney at that point called me to say, these guys need some help. Right. So it was a mentorship kind of that you provided. I wish I could tell you that they were experts instantly. Anybody that's that smart. kind of was like, OK, we will take it from here a lot of the time. Plus, interestingly enough, and probably not well known is.

There's a difference, this is so inside baseball, but maybe somebody will be interested in this. ⁓ There's a difference between a performance on stage in a Broadway musical and making a record. So I was making a record that was gonna stand the test of time and be played a thousand times. And also strangely enough with animation, you record all the music and voices first.

because they have to draw to them. So the voices had to be perfect. And what I would do is the way you make a record is you get lots of different takes of a vocal. You have singers sing a first verse and sometimes you stop and you go back and you sing the first verse again on a different track. As I said, this is inside baseball. But what you're doing is you're making the best sounding, the most in tune.

the most emotional performance from several performances because humans don't always sing in tune.

The creators of Little Mermaid really didn't like that. They wanted the Broadway approach, which is you stand up once and you sing it through, and that's the performance. So I had to let them go through that and find out, is that performance the best one for you? Because I could improve it by getting Jodie Benson to sing that song again. I mean, this is, it just was an interesting two.

two ways of approaching a song.

live and the technical version which is still being played today. Thank God I finally had to go through the motions of getting it perfect because you don't want an out of tune vocal on your record. And nobody realizes how much I think the technical word is futzing goes into making a record. You're not just recording the band.

you're now it's you're not even close to just recording the band. You are creating an audio version of a song with all the tools that you're disposing. So by the end of that process, were those guys hooked on this new way? No, they hated it. They hated it. And okay. They hated it. They wanted to go back to their way. ⁓ which is great. I don't know if it changed the fact of

they wanted it their way when Under the Sea won the Academy Award. ⁓ You know, wow, maybe they were, I don't know. They went off and made Beauty and the Beast next. ⁓ And they did it themselves. So I don't know how they approached it. All good for me, you know. It's all just an experience. Well, the Little Mermaid soundtrack was an integral part of our family life, my family life growing up.

as we would, it was played as we would drive up to the cabin, my family up to our ski cabin, little mermaid, kiss the girl under the sea. Like these were favorites that got played over and over. And I know that both my brother and I played that for our kids as we were playing that. So like you were part of, that's why it was, it's such an inspiration to be to talk to you that you were such a, and I wrote weaving because I think you were an integral part.

that process, bringing that together. And that's part of the weave. The weave is many different strings. Yeah. It's putting the record together. It's very different, as I said. It's also fun to hear you say that because I had no idea what the impact of those songs would be. For me, it was somewhere between my next job. I I didn't know I was working on it. You didn't know that was going to win an Academy Award? No, or that...

Actually, in the history of Disney, they had not made an animated film for a long time. Right. They, you know, here they have this great snow white and all these incredible and Fantasia in the 40s, 50s. Sure. And by 60s, 70s, animation wasn't happening. So they were starting it again. Little Mermaid. And thank God I was brought in. I actually. Well.

didn't know why they got me, but... Well, after finishing that album and the theatrical release, when did you know that you had completely struck gold with this thing? Probably when I was asked to go meet with the Henson Company to start working on Muppet movies, because suddenly I went from being the perspiring rock star that I wanted to be in New York City...

to I'm now in LA doing kids records. And you know, I'm a big fan of just follow the breadcrumbs. You never know where it's gonna lead. But I think that was a good indication that, ⁓ well, there's a whole arena here of producing music or writing music that's this kind of kiddy music. And by the way, I had two infants.

It was the exact moment in the culture that there was a baby boom. And there was... I mean, was echo boom, I think, because baby boomers were having babies. You know, I'm in my 30s and I have little kids. And now I'm making Muppet records, Muppet Christmas Carol and Fraggle Rock and I don't even know what. So it was really a new avenue. But that was...

one of the off youths, the Little Mermaid. Well, mean, one of the I think one of the things about the Muppet Show was that ⁓ it had the Muppet Show had a maturity to it that, you know, it was so nuanced and layered that I think adults found it funny. Kids found it funny because they were Muppets. But, you know, you go back and watch the Muppet Show. There's like there's jokes. Yeah, there's some adult stuff in there. So lot, you know, this wasn't the Teletubbies, right? This was this was something different.

I tried to kind of capitalize on that when I was, I started Jim Henson Records, because they said, you know, why don't you... When we talked about it, I said, why do you guys put... Where do you put your records out? Because Disney makes its record and then puts it on Disney records. Why isn't there a Jim Henson Records? So when you make these Muppet Records, because there's this fabulous music associated with Sesame Street, Muppets and all that. They said, wow, would you start that?

I mean, this is the weirdness of a career. I was a piano player. I had never started a record label. Of course, I said yes. And then, you you go and figure out how to do what they're asking. ⁓ But I tried to do things where I would take Muppets and make duets with like pop stars, which is a very Muppet show thing. But I ended up doing like Miss Piggy and Ozzy Osbourne.

singing Born to Be Wild, you know, it was like, this will get exactly what you said, adult audience, kid audience, and made funny things. And Miss Piggy looked good in a leather jacket. ⁓ she was. rocked that leather jacket. She was. She could really do anything. She could do anything because she was the brilliant Frank Oz. Frank Oz is the voice of Miss Piggy. And. And Yoda. ⁓ thank you.

He absolutely Frank also is a genius genius. He and Jim. I mean, it's a fabulous story. He and Jim Henson really started everything. Jim was Kermit. Frank was Piggy. ⁓ And they bounced off each other and they were very interesting compliments of each other. Frank was kind of zany. Jim was very buttoned down in a certain way and.

entrepreneurial, of course. ⁓ I got to learn so much from these guys. Did you work on Labyrinth? I didn't. That was before me. That was before you. Yeah. In fact, I was brought into the Henson company.

in.

June of the year, and I have to think what year it was, might have been 90, that Jim Henson had just died. So I was called by his son, Brian Henson.

And so I never worked with Jim, ⁓ but I had this kind of epic lunch with Brian Ensign who was taking over the company and I just wanted to work. And I just want to, yeah, sure, I'll try that. One of my favorite credits, I think we spoke about this, one of my favorite credits that you have is Adventures in Babysitting. ⁓ And this was a pivotal moment for me, this movie, because that's when I first met Elizabeth Shue and fell in love. ⁓

I think she was my first love. I only ever met the two dimensional Elizabeth Shue on the screen, but wow. Just that opening scene when she's singing. ⁓ Yeah, that's great. Baby singing blues. ⁓ What a great... You worked on that as well, right? did. I wrote the songs, produced the tracks, and ⁓ went to Chicago for the scenes.

to kind of be on location and on the set when Elizabeth Shue sang, who didn't did and, you know, a babysitting blues with Albert Iceman Collins. Yeah, you're right there in a nightclub and not just a nightclub, but like a fully black nightclub. And they just like they stumble upon it. It's a great scene. Suburban kids. It's a great scene. Right. And you should be in bed. Yeah. Albert Collins says and the crowd loves it. It's great. You are.

Right. Because ⁓ Elizabeth Shue was, you know, 20 maybe. ⁓ I think it was her first sort of big. And she, you know, it's like, I'm going to sing. I've never really sung in a studio. You know, what do I do? And so I'd set the mic up and and she started to sing. I thought, God, she's beautiful. She's talented. She sings like a dream. She's funny and rhythmic and cool. And it was.

She was incredible. Yeah. She really sort of symbolized that that eighties kind of free spirited, but there's a, there was a purity to her. Absolutely. In fact, she wasn't brooding like sort of like Ali Shidi. Absolutely. Right. Good call. Ali Shidi and war games or, breakfast club. Yeah. And breakfast club and went on a rider and they were all kind of deeper. Elizabeth was just, yeah.

Though I think she did, now that we're getting in the movie lore, I think she did Leaving Las Vegas with Nick Cage. And that was a little deeper. But she was just great. She was just great. And she married an unbelievable filmmaker. Little known fact, but she married Davis Guggenheim, who's a great documentary filmmaker. Which I always thought was just wonderful. They're both really interesting. But Adventures in Babysitting was great for all kinds of reasons. Working with her.

writing those songs. And I started a relationship with the director who hired me for his next movie named Chris Columbus and Christopher Columbus. almost famous is one of my favorite. Yeah. Well, he had he had made. I think Goonies was always ⁓ or Gremlins, maybe Gremlins. Yeah. Yeah. Goonies was all right, Joe. Well, it was produced right. And ⁓

It was the same, was it Frank Marshall? No. No, somebody. No. was a producer. Yeah. It was that gang. It was that Spielberg gang. I think it might've been Gremlins and then he got ⁓ Adventures in Babysitting and then he was hired to do a movie called Heartbreak Hotel and I was brought on to produce those songs. It was a story of Elvis Presley coming to Austin, Texas.

It was really a weird movie. It didn't work. I had fun recording David Keith as Elvis and ⁓ singing Elvis songs. But I thought, well, Chris Columbus, you know, he had a good one. Nothing's going to happen. I went off to do whatever my next movie was because I was brought onto another movie. Hey, Chris, good luck. I really thought the guy had kind of reached the end of his rope on moviemaking because

And then he went off and did Home Alone as his next movie. And became Chris Columbus, the enormous guy. He's huge. But ⁓ all good. We we stumbled forward. Did Chris do Home Alone or was that? he definitely did. That was his next movie after Heartbreak Hotel, the failure Heartbreak Hotel. And he had talked about it.

He got John Williams to score it, which he wanted desperately. And I remember saying to him, you know, he said, even for Heartbreak Hotel or one of these other movies, could John Williams, said, John Williams, so locked into Lucas and Spielberg and is so kind of in the stratosphere. And I don't think he's going to, I don't know. He did it. I always thought John Hughes did. John Hughes did all those kind of. Yeah, he did like Ferris Bueller's and Plains Canes and. Right. Breakfast Club.

Yeah. Okay. So he didn't know that was Chris Columbus and Michael Barney and was the producer. Did I think John Hughes, did John Hughes write Home Alone? He might've. Okay. Maybe that's what I'm confused. Chris is the director. Chris is the director. And Macaulay Culkin. Yeah. Of course. And the great Catherine O'Hara. Catherine O'Hara who we just lost. Yeah. And John Candy was in it there for a little cameo. Yeah. Yeah. And Daniel Stern. polka club there. Right. She rides back with him to...

You remember he's in the pocket. tells that story about... ...leaving his kid in the funeral home. That's great. I think he was paid $490 for that. Oh my God. Yeah. John. Yeah. Yeah. Great guy. That's great. We watch that every Christmas. Oh, that's As well as National Lampoon. Those are kind of Oh, fun. I didn't actually realize that...

The Muppet Christmas Carol people come up to me and say they watch that a lot. And again, this is one of those things I just kind of I love doing. But yeah, I you don't know which ones stick around. Some some are good for a season. Most tank. Right. And no one knows them or hears them. I don't know. Particularly now it's a generation later. You mentioned a movie you worked on. They said I've never heard of that. You mentioned an artist you worked with. And they say, who's that? So you realize it.

Yeah, it's just this up and down, but a couple of them stick and those becomes ones that people know. I'm amazing. No adventures in babysitting. Yeah, nobody knows that. Yeah, well, I mean, I've I've had I've had discussions with some of my my eldest son. he's only 15 or even even people in their 20s. They've never seen The Matrix. ⁓ and I'm just like, that's such a seminal important film. Yes, it was for my generation because that was like.

the first time this sort of philosophy of that we might be living in a simulation. Wow. Hit the mainstream, How interesting to think about the Matrix now with what's going on. was such a, like, wow, that blew our minds. I remember walking into the theater, a couple of movies where I walked out of the theater going, I just saw something that was so different that I felt revolutionary to me. One of them was Pulp Fiction.

Nice. And I just saw that, when I saw that when I was in Prague, living in Prague in 1994, when it came out. And I was like, there was something so transformative about that film and how it was done and how it was cut and edited and shot and it was brilliant. And then The Matrix. Which was totally different because that was very stylized. But you're right, those are both transformational films. Yeah. And then the other experience I think I had was...

in the same year, American Pie and Fight Club came out. Nice. And I was like, these two, and it just felt like these two movies were sort of pivotal explorations in where America was at right now, or where we were at. I just remember thinking that. And I remember standing at And you worked on Fight Club. Yeah, I did. And I remember standing at the door to our house, and we had just had a conversation. You were on your way out.

And you started to mention somehow you just watched Fight Club the night before. Yeah, with my son. Yeah. Yeah. The first time I looked at Beth Kraft, Mrs. Kraft, looking at me, waiting and wondering when I was going to do what she knew I couldn't resist doing. And you actually kind of went at least two paragraphs in the Fight Club and we saw it and it was this and it was that. And we did this thing and it was really interesting. And my son, and I just while you were talking.

She was looking at me going, I'm waiting for you. You're not going to let him leave. I know without saying something because it would be really fabulously humble of me to let you leave and then turn. She said and she would say, I can't believe you didn't say anything. That would be such that be something for me to aspire to. I'm not there yet because I couldn't let you go without saying kind of, yeah, I.

I worked on the music for Fiekel. And then you went, what? I know. if you've laurels like that, you need to rest. I apologize. I know. Because I love that. Because that's sort of insider information and information you can glean from something that was pivotal and transformative in your life. And somebody was that close to it, like yourself. ⁓ That's so awesome. But it's so interesting to think it was pivotal.

and transformative for me because I learned from the director. It wasn't just the movie. I learned from the director who had a very unique and different approach to film music than I was used to. So these experiences, the movie is interesting and great and evocative because as it turns out, almost always the director is somebody who's really exploring something new.

happens in all areas of the filmmaking process, including the music. And I learned a lot about how to do film music from that director, David Fincher. And Fincher is such a stylized director. ⁓ Completely. Like the game Seven, Panic Room, like all of us. So I would imagine that he would be just as stylized musically. Completely unorthodox.

His approach was unorthodox enough that when he told me what he wanted to do, I said, no, that's not going to work. He said, I want to try it. He's the director. Directors are the boss of movies. So my job is to say, well, let's try it. know, destined to fail, but we'll try it. What was his what was his his idea was to get to songwriting producers. The Dust Brothers, who had just produced

the latest Beck album to score the film. This is like saying, I run a really expensive first class restaurant and I know somebody who has a.

a street vendor in far away who makes incredible dumplings, who I want to be the head chef at this incredibly expensive fancy restaurant because these movies, I mean, here you have Brad Pitt and Ed Norton. gosh. Yeah. And 90 million dollars is 100 million dollars is what Fight Club cost. I know because it came up how much was lost on Fight Club. wasn't successful.

So I think the studio lost 90 or 100 million bucks, but I'm the guy responsible for getting the music in. And he says, I want two people that have never scored a film who make beats for Beck to be the composers of this movie. He's not saying I want John Williams or Hans Zimmer or Danny Elfman.

you know, kind of round up the it would have been a hundred twenty million dollars. You're absolutely right. Dust Brothers were like, what you want us to? Yeah, I guess. And I thought it's crazy, but I discounted how David Fincher would direct the Dust Brothers to do what he needed as opposed to them saying, well, here's what we'll do. He said, let's go down there and hang with them and play them some

scenes and see what they come up with. And I'll start cutting it into the movie and it's going to work. And he was right. It's great. Yeah. Because he. I hesitate to say he was co-composer, but he directed them. I need to watch it again with the music more in mind because it's such a visceral film. You're just so you're so wrapped up in the in the blood and the guts and the fighting that you're but. ⁓

I can't for the life of me believe that that movie was panned when it came out. Like I know it sort of got booed at con, but I just can't understand why. Cause I saw it and I was like, this is brilliant. And I even think Brad, I think when Brad Pitt saw it, was like, I think this is the best thing I've ever done or ever will do or something like that. Like, I don't know what's wrong with people. Maybe they, maybe it just triggered some nerves and they were, they were like, was, it was probably wrapped up into toxic masculinity and

and all this kind of stuff that, know, men fighting each other and then this is not the way. So I don't know. I think maybe also I'm just guessing because it not only was panned, it failed at the box office. Yeah. It cost the job of somebody at the studio who had said, let's make this movie. But my guess is that it was very confrontational to watch these guys fighting each other. Right. And that was kind of.

Oh, what they're going to go and beat their shit out of each other in a basement. Yeah. But that was that that's such that that's looking at that's looking at the film. So on the on the nose. Yeah, it's really about getting out of the comfort zone and just like removing the just the stagnancy of life and this the other the cushioning of they needed more of you in the audience. Yeah, maybe. Yeah, I don't know. I love the only rule of Fight Club.

Maybe I was like the right age demographic. Yeah. And probably the right. I hesitate to say it, but a kind of it was. I think he said it was toxic masculinity for a lot of people, you need for movies to succeed, particularly expensive movies, you need what's called a four quadrant audience. OK, four quadrant audiences. In a traditional gender definition.

Older men, younger men, older women, younger women. OK, those are the four quadrants. Right. It obviously is incredibly blurred, but some movies can succeed because every young woman is going to go see that movie and it's going to be huge and then it's going to spread out from there to their moms are going to see it. Maybe their boyfriends are going to see it. But you have a core demographic. It's the way movie companies think. Fight Club appealed probably to young men full stop.

Like, you saying that you need to try to hit all four quadrants? Well, for expensive movies, you do. Those Marvel movies are four quadrant movies. You're going to get people to go see Captain America, are families. But ⁓ several movies that are made, you'll never get a four quadrant audience. Those are the big commercial. And movies are so expensive, they now have to appeal to four quadrant. But if...

in the days when you could make an indie film, maybe the Quadrant is simply young people. Maybe Quadrant is simply women who want to see this kind of movie. But it's also, it's a very difficult system for filmmaking because it reduces the audience to a certain, everybody in that group must think this way. Wait a minute.

I could be an older man and love a teenage girl movie because it's a cool movie. But they assume that not enough.

people in this demographic will go so they have to, it's, with a movie studio and they dial all the numbers up and down trying to forecast who will go. Yeah, that's crazy. And Fight Club, they never should have made for 90 or 100 million bucks because somebody would have probably guessed.

I'm sure I can now remember. It reads like an indie film a bit. I wonder if, you know, if Brad and Edward would have cut their paychecks in half. They're sort of at the top of their game. Why should they? Because that's what four months out of their time when they could be making... And they also have an agent that's going to say, we're not cutting their paycheck in half. And you also have moves to your studio that assumes women will come see Brad Pitt. But they might not see Brad Pitt like that is what they figured out.

Oh, you know, that's a problem. sure was off for a lot of the movies. Yeah. And that's I think was you're absolutely right. I think they thought this is going to appeal to. But. It's a business. Yeah. And you want if the women are going to go, they're to go as a date of somebody and they're going to come out of the theater and either say, boy, I love that and I love Brad Pitt or oh, that was gross. And then they tell their friends and then nobody goes by Monday. It's Friday. It opens on Monday. It's over. Really? Yeah.

But you know, with DVD sales and because, you know, I think that movie is now a cult. Totally like film. So it must have it must have money coming back from streaming and people buying it online. And I don't know if it's ever going to recap its full. That's a very good question. And I think in the comfort of your own home, if you see Fight Club by David Fincher as an option on Netflix, Amazon, Apple.

A lot of people might say, you know, I always wondered what that was like and they'll watch it. I'm not sure the streaming revenue will equal what it's like when you have to buy a $14 movie ticket. Yeah. And you have 100 million people going to see Black Panther or, you know, Wonder Woman or some one of these movies. That's so much money. know. Avatar just crossed a billion dollars. Amazing.

You know, the new one. that's a lot of people going to movies. Yeah, well, I mean, I think we like I, I think I came over. I was over at your place there sometime in September or something like that. And we're talking about Fight Club and I'd shown Jai, my eldest Fight Club. And then on Halloween, he went dressed as Tyler Durden. So, yeah, he as best he could.

Yeah, that's so cool. Yeah, loved it. Yeah. And then also, ⁓ you should take a photograph. We figure out how to send that to David Fincher. I make him really happy. And of course, they use the pixie song at the end when the you know, where is my mind as all the buildings are falling. So that I think that kind of revitalized a bit of the pixies to that was another thing that Fincher insisted on. Yeah, I want to get that song. I want to I don't care how much I need that song. So ⁓ cool.

He was cool. I really thought he was great. It didn't really damage his career at all. He's gone on to do some great stuff. Yeah. Including in the television world. I think he was quite he did. Didn't he do? Well, House of Cards, wasn't that? Yes. Yeah. And that was great. also made another unbelievably great movie using when I saw who scored that movie that I'm about to mention, I thought.

Fincher has added again, he did social network with Trent Reznor and Atticus Ross. He took the guy who was Nine Inch Nails, who had never scored a movie. This is Dust Brothers Redux. And it's one of my favorite scores. And that score won the Academy Award. Because Trent Reznor, with another member of Nine Inch Nails, who happened to be a great film composer in addition to his career in the band, ⁓

approached scoring a movie in some ways not different from the Dust Brothers, which is, don't know what I'm going to do, but I'm going to make really cool music the way I feel it when I see these scenes in social network. And he nailed it. He nailed it. so Fincher's approach artistically is so admirable. He says, I'm going to take a chance. Same with Tarantino. You know, I'm going to do things that people aren't doing because I want a different.

That's great. Great artists do that. So, you know, from LA, you were in LA and now you are in a small cabin in a forest on a deserted island that has a couple of coffee shops. What's going on? Total joy. I've actually... is like a 180. If Nirvana is this...

than I actually found it during this lifetime. I love it. You had to maroon yourself. I had to maroon myself, but also I think that...

First of all, I, you know, as you know, I have a lot of kind of strange belief that...

It works out. It doesn't work out. know, whoever's making these decisions, they don't necessarily know my calendar. I'm ready for change.

But they kind of do, because I don't know if I could have been on Salt Spring. I certainly couldn't have been on Salt Spring and done adventure babysitting and fight club and all that. That was part of a certain part of my life that I had to be in the engine room, which was Los Angeles filmmaking universe. Music City, Film City. That's not necessarily what I need at this point. And so it's appropriate, age appropriate.

But also, I'd gotten so divorced from nature. New York City and LA were my two, and I, just, when I first came to Salt Spring, for one night, it was like,

Yes, our place to live. Plus, we're also in the 21st century where when I do Zooms every single day, which I do for my work, they think I'm sitting in LA. I never volunteer that I'm.

in a different country, on an island, unless they say, ⁓ are you? That looks beautiful outside. I say, yeah, it's a beautiful day here. You're in LA. Actually not, I'm in British Columbia. What? But it doesn't, you know, and if I need to be in LA, it's two hours and 20 minutes from YVR. So it's not.

It's radical in some ways as a life decision, but it's wonderful. Yeah. Well, I'm glad you're here. Yeah, me too. I want to talk a little bit about more, a lot, you did very well in Hollywood and LA and that's, it's a place that's also known for swallowing people alive, you know.

How did you survive it? Because I'm assuming you've seen the negative as well as the positive and what it's done to people. And how did you survive Hollywood for so long at the position you were at?

Spiritually, maybe first of all, the question is did I survive? Did you serve I might have survived physically but spiritually emotionally Psychologically there You know it it does take a toll though. I think that it After being out out of it. I'm starting to get a very healthier perspective on it. I think that ⁓

You said you must have seen the negative. I don't think people ever are aware. In other words, what are we talking about in this conversation? Things that work.

There are a handful of things that work in a career. There are dozens of disastrous failures. made albums as an artist. Nobody's heard them. They were on major labels. They tanked. They failed. Nobody bought them. Nobody played them on the radio. I was on these big labels. They spent money on records. They didn't succeed. I thought my career is over.

I wanted to be a singer, songwriter, pop star. It didn't happen. So it was a total fail. Well, wait a minute. One song on one record was heard by a guy in Hollywood. OK, so maybe I'll write songs for TV. Not what I wanted to do, they seemed to like my songwriting. A lot of TV shows didn't go. It had my song on it. It just didn't go. But why don't you produce a record of a friend of yours? Because you're not a d-

We're being a studio, right? And he needs he's been signed to a record company. ⁓ So. I don't know how many records I produced that you've never heard. It's just what people don't realize. So the question is, how do you survive? I said yes to a lot of gigs and a lot of people were too precious to do. You know, everybody. Wants to believe they're an artist and they'll only do certain things. I had.

a wife and kids, I wanted to pay my fuck rent. And I was musical and capable of doing a lot of the jobs that people said, can you come over and produce the DuckTales theme song at Disney? Well, this is a far cry from being a late night New York singer songwriter. In my 20s, you wanted to be Jack Kerouac and Allen Ginsberg, right? Beatnik, cool, Tom Waits.

Now I'm rescue Rangers for Disney. DuckTales. DuckTales. And the classic that you don't know the impact that had on a certain kids, man. I'm one of them. You know, had for me, they probably paid me $15,000 to produce it and gave me, you know, royalty on every time I played. Ironically, Uncle Scrooge is very rich. Uncle Scrooge. He was diving into the gold. Maybe what it led me to.

was they knew me to call me on Little Mermaid. So whoever called me on DuckTales, which I can't remember, but... Also, Little Mermaid was after DuckTales. Yeah. So the great value I found of not being precious, I don't do that, I'm an artist. By the way, I fully salute anybody who does that. There's no downside to that if your goal is to be, and I admire and kind of regret I wasn't that kind of artist.

I'd probably still be in New York. I'd probably still be making records that no one heard, but I was proud of. ⁓ There's no downside to saying I have an artistic vision and I'm sticking to it. ⁓ I had an artistic vision which was to get paid to be musical because I love music so much. I would do anything to stay in music even if it was sort of the outer reaches of what I really love. But it turns out...

You have to do the outer reaches to get a couple shots at doing the cool ones. Right. Because you end up having. So what's funny is how do you survive Hollywood? A. I said yes. B. I kind of found a niche that wasn't very crowded, which was somebody in film who really understood music.

I not on purpose ended up in these rooms where I was the music guy in a circle of filmmakers, the television director, the show runner, the screenwriter. They were all in the room, but I had to be there because I was doing the music for their show. So they turned to me and say, you got to find a song for us, write a song for us, score it. And now that's actually more

known but at that point I was really in some ways kind of surprised nobody understands the music aspect and I do so I can things you need I know how to do them right and then of course it led one thing led to another and then I got the call that really changed everything which is I've been independent whatever job you need I did it I was a freelancer and then I got a call from a

genuine Hollywood studio to say, you be the head of music here doing that for all our films and TV shows? Wow. A job that I never anticipated, didn't know existed. Yeah. Didn't ever see myself in. It was so random to get that phone call. I wasn't trying to get that gig. didn't, you know, but I've got a message that this guy wanted to talk to me was.

had a 20th Century Fox. So that's what really became this. ⁓ look how well you did. Well, I did well because I was the lucky recipient of a phone call. By the way, I was probably fourth on his list. The first three guys. I know two of the three guys who passed. They just didn't get the gig. They didn't want the gig. So talk about karma. all your, any and all freelancer money problems you would have had.

went away with that phone call. It was one of the great, a lot of people said, are you going to be a suit? I said, you've got a salary now that's I said, yeah, but I'm going to get paid on Friday. Yeah. Every Friday. What a relief. Hey. And my children are going to have stability as a dad that's home. I'm not racing to Chicago or New York or London. Yeah. I'm in LA. I have to be in LA to go every day to her.

studio. I literally every morning went to 20th Century Fox to make sure that every single fire that had blown up was put out. That was my gig. The music fires. Yeah, we can't afford this. We can't do this. This guy quit. We got that's my gig. Right. So now you now you've gone from creating music to like sort of being a therapist between egos. Yes, exactly. So that's a very different job description. Yep. And ⁓

also learning how to

at least preserve the part of me that was musical because after all the therapy and everything, I was kind of the period at the end of the sentence on every one of these projects. I had to kind of bring it back to base camp, say, here's your music. And I had to know that it was as good as I could make it, that they were looking at me to make it great. That doesn't mean that everything I brought back, they said, this is wonderful. Most of the time they said, this isn't what we wanted.

They literally were, they were so used to some other idea of what the music was gonna be that when they heard their final music a lot of the time, they were upset. It's a hard thing to understand, but most movies and TV shows have what's called temp music. So they have the greatest music in the world because they pulled it from every one of their favorite movies and stuck it against their film. And they're used to that. Then they hire a composer.

who writes brand new music and they don't like it because they're used to. Right. They put temp music and the temp music. So it's that it's just so you're putting the best up again. Like it's hard to. Yeah. Every composer would hear the temp score and say how am I going to beat this? This is a cue by Alan Silvestri from Forrest Gump. Yeah. That's classic. And they want me to write a scene that's it's kind of setting setting you up for disappointment. Whatever you do. ⁓

Here's a question for you. Would you like this one might be a bit tough to answer, but I think it's an interesting question. you would you knowing all that, you know, where we the technological advancements around music production where we are today, would you want to start? If you could go back in time, would you want to start your career now? As a young person, having what we have? Or were you content starting when you started it? That's hard one. It's easy. Oh, it's easy. Oh, completely easy. Right. I'm so lucky.

that you started back then. Yeah. Yeah. You wouldn't want to start now. Not at all for a couple really.

basic reasons.

First of all, it was a combination of analog and digital. So there was a lot of analog. There was a lot of hands-on going to work with a band, going to be in the room with Stone Temple Pilots because they had to write the song and produce the song and somebody had to go get them, get their shit together. But it wasn't, we're doing this all on a laptop. And no laptops. It was getting into the room with them.

and times a thousand. Cigarette smoke everywhere. Everywhere, cigarette smoke, every kind of smoke. bringing bands in, bringing orchestras in, bringing sitar players in. There was a lot of music being made by musicians. Humans. Now, I wouldn't touch it. I'd have samples, I'd have laptop, Pro Tools, Logic, Spitfires.

string sounds. Well, like the sitar guy in India would just fire you over some music now. Exactly right. In fact, you know, I worked on Slumdog Millionaire and that was A.R. Raman. Yeah. Indian genius musician with tablas, sitars. Yeah. Now it'd be just Sam sample me a whole. And so, A, I got this lustrous thing. B, I had another advantage that you would never imagine that made

My occupation looked so good when it would be the same now, but I was in the era of CDs being sold of soundtracks. So instead of streaming revenue for a hit song, 20th Century Fox is putting out the Titanic soundtrack and it's selling 30 million CDs at $19.99 each.

plus 30 million singles of Celine Dion and the studio is reaping tens of millions of dollars from music and they're patting me on the back because the actual format that the music's being released on is a complete ripoff for the consumer.

because those CDs didn't have to cost $19.99. Oh, they're cheap, right? They cost $0.39 to make. But you put the music on them, you charge, well, we You got the cover art and all that. Yeah. But if a record company can charge $19.99 for a hit, they do. And then there's a lot of money sloshing around. And when you're selling, you know, I had these enormous soundtrack. It was the era of soundtracks. So.

Moulin Rouge goes through the roof. Lady Marmalade goes number one. ⁓ You know, these number one records were huge moneymakers. Now you get that to a certain degree, but I don't know if the head of music at the studio gets a pat on the back. It's become a bigger business. Everybody figured out there was money there and there are no CDs now. It's just streams. So when

K-pop Demon hunters goes out and the song golden. Yeah Has a billion streams. That's great. But a billion streams at point ⁓ nine cents a stream on Spotify You know, they might make a few quid But it's not 1999 Dollars, I mean, it's just different economics. That's what you pay a month for Spotify kind of thing

Yeah. you've got you get every song in the world. Every song in world. You got for 1999, you got the soundtrack. I just remember seeing that in a store once. That's how much they're charging for the Titanic soundtrack. I thought it was 1499. Oh, it's the number one record. Of course, the record label is going to make it 1999. This is for a vinyl record for a CD. Oh, for CD. Yeah. Okay. This is just recently. No, this is in 1996. 97. That's when you're absolutely right.

Yeah. It was 1999. That huge. soundtrack. 30 My Will Go On. So My Heart Will Go On is number one, won the Academy Award number one for 10 weeks. 30 million copies sold times 20 boxes. Yeah. That's a of Yeah, a lot of money. And so when you said would I want to be in this era, I guess, but I think that music is so...

ubiquitous now, so easy to access on Spotify, so ephemeral that not a lot of soundtracks break through. Some do. But I was in an era where the soundtrack was really. People say all the time, wow, the Garden State soundtrack was huge for me. The 500 Days of Summer, the Napoleon Dynamite, know, the Sound Dog Millionaire. These were big soundtracks for me. Little Mermaid, you know, these were big soundtrack albums. Now.

I mean, I was driving with Jai. We were driving in Vancouver and I was like, what do want to listen to in the car? And he's like, I don't know, whatever, put something on. I'm like, oh, okay. I'm going to put on Wish You Were Here. Because he likes to play that song by Pink Floyd, right? And all he's ever heard is that song. And I'm like, we're going to listen to the whole album. Oh, good. Right? We're going to listen to the whole album. He's like, okay. And...

You know, I used to listen to that album, but go fall asleep all the time as a kid. I'm like, they don't make albums like this anymore. Every, there is no track. There's Shine on You Crazy Diamond, One, Two, Three, Four, whatever. But the way they, every song flowed into the next song, the way you couldn't, it would be weird if you put on just like track number three, it would just start off with like, and the song.

Well, they weren't like distinctive songs and you'd say what the wall of the whole album like you have to listen to the wall all the way through. That's not you can't just you won't understand it. Track by track and it's genomic relational. So you listen to a Spotify track and it will find something like it. Yeah.

The other aspect of doing it when I did it as opposed to now is that movies still had currency as being the center of the culture. It was, there was no Netflix, Amazon, Apple streaming. You went to the movies to be able to talk about whatever was happening.

in the culture and it was so exciting to be in the middle of that. Everyone wanted to work at a movie studio at that moment because you were making these hot movies that were people wanted to see on the weekends and it was a big business and they were diehards and lethal weapon and avatar and on and on and on. It was so exciting.

Now, obviously, the movie business is absolutely freaking out because who's going to movie theaters? It's all migrated to streaming ⁓ and it's huge fractured marketplace of who's watching what nobody is there a.

monoculture as they say anymore where everyone is watching one you got to see this movie. You know everybody's going to see it or you're not going to be able to talk about it. Not anymore. Yeah like Star Wars right. People want to go see Star Wars in the late 70s. It was a zeitgeist. It was a cultural touchstone. Star Wars Jaws. you couldn't. Yeah you know you haven't seen it. That'd be impossible. ⁓

picnic or something. Yeah, it's like it was like missing church. Right. Exactly. You're not part of the culture. I inherited that moment. yeah, you came at a good time. I did. Yeah, you're lucky. I am lucky. ⁓ Well, I guess you could say your soul came down and chose that right time. I love that. Yeah, maybe that's true. I had some other, ⁓ another question for you. ⁓ just

Also, I think there was, think Matt Damon had said something about this, now filmmakers are having to, or scriptwriters are having to do things in the script that reiterate and kind of reintroduce the entire plot because people are off on their phones and they're, you know, they're, you know, they're distracted. People are watching a movie, but they're doing something else as well. ⁓ you know, like when in our family, if we're watching a movie, no one's on any other screen.

If somebody else picks up a phone or does something, then the movie goes off and you decide. Nice. Yeah. Same as, ⁓ you know, same as ⁓ if somebody, if somebody wants to play music, if somebody wants to play the trumpet or to play the piano, then all, then the TV goes off. Nice. That's the rule music priority. That's the way it should be. But then you, if you're going to play, you're going to play for that half hour under your practice. You're not going to play for five minutes, make everybody turn the TV off and then, ⁓ right. That kind of thing. But I think that's rare.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, we're so just, it's just, hard, you know, and having kids, I mean, your kids are grown, but having kids now and just the, the reels and the Instagram and it's, it's a tough thing to compete with. And it just instant, right? It's just dopamine and we're losing some screens instead of looking out at what's in front of us. We're looking down at a screen.

And I don't know if this ends well for humanity to have so plugged in that we lose touch with certain basic things. Not that I I have no opinion on where it's going on virtually anything, because this is is just the way I always think. You know, how do you feel about that? Well, I mean, I have strong feelings about certain things, but I also know this is the way it's going.

How it ends, I don't know. What it evolves to, I don't know. I'm sure I'd be wrong.

So this might evolve into something really wonderful next. It might evolve into something really terrible next. It's not for me to say or certainly to guess ⁓ what this generation will do. Hard to say, though it is interesting and I'm sure there have been equivalents in other generations to

watch a mother with a two-year-old and just hand the two-year-old the iPad. And I think that's interesting. I mean, my mom didn't have an iPad to hand me. She was probably with me 100 % in a stroller or something instead of handing me an iPad and then making a phone call, which is just current. We never criticize a mom for that or a dad for that right now.

that is the way you manage. ⁓ I think I had a version that my kids, I probably put on. You put on a TV show or put on cartoons. Video tape. Yeah. Right. VHS. I mean, my kids are in a moment where the evolution from video to DVD was my two boys are three years apart. So one of them had everything on a VHS. Yeah. And then the younger one.

Suddenly we're getting DVDs. We have to replace the VHS with a DVD player. And then suddenly it's online. So God knows what's next. A chip in the brain. ⁓ You're passionate about your yoga. I am. What draws you to practicing yoga? It's so interesting. First of all, because I learn every day I do yoga, I learn something more. ⁓ It's moving meditation.

and I really like that. It's away from all the things we're talking about. I am not doing anything when I'm in the yoga studio than doing yoga. I'm not looking at my phone. I don't have a watch on to kind of monitor my heart. I just am on the mat doing whatever I'm being told to do. It also is reminding me on a daily basis because I'm almost every day.

something I'm very conscious of, which is I'm not just psyche, I'm soma as well. I'm a physical being. And my physical being and my emotional being and psychological being are very connected. And so the more I'm aware of, my foot, my finger, my elbow, my whatever.

the more I'm aware of being present. So yoga just makes me fully present as opposed to just present from the neck up. I'm really aware of, and it's all a result of yoga, because what are you doing in yoga? You're thinking, oh wow, are my arms, and could I raise them any further? Can I turn my body anymore? And it makes you think about the physical aspect of being.

on this earth and I like that. Yeah. There is this idea in yoga philosophy that the body is actually the outermost extension of the mind. Love that. That the body actually is the mind and that we access the mind through the body. So when you're in those poses and things are burning and they're hurting and you're like, want to get out of this, my hips hurt, that you just, ⁓ what happens if you do nothing and just observe that sensation?

I love that. of running away from it or craving or chasing something. We're always either running away or chasing. These are the two poles that we oscillate between that create suffering. Neither one, by the way, is in the present moment. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Neither one. I had a yoga teacher once who said one sentence while I was doing something that has stayed with me on a daily basis. He said,

You know that feeling you have when you're in a pose and you say, can't do this for one more minute. You can do it for one more minute. That's all he said. And anytime in that burning feeling and I think I'm going to just forget it. going down to child's pose now. I think, and nope. Yeah, I'm going to hang. I love that the body is the outer manifestation. try that sometimes even, even when I'm in yoga, but even if I'm just sitting there and

there's a, I feel like an itch, you know, like an itch on my face or something. know, it's instantly you want to just scratch it. Most of the times you do, cause it's so unconscious, but I'm like, I feel something in my body. I'm like, what if I just don't do anything and just, just watch that and just observe that. And then you're like, well, wait a second. It's, it's uncomfortable, but then it changed. It, it, it undulates, it changes. It's the color of it changes even in your mind. Like you're just watching it. Sometimes it's less intense, more intense.

You're and you become the observer of that sensation. You know, that's so amazing. He said it's just you're describing my. I had an epiphany maybe a week ago doing yoga that was not only a yoga epiphany, but a life epiphany, of course, and that's why it's so great to do it. I was in that position, which

we call lizard, right? You're all stretched out in two hands next to one foot and the other foot's back. And you're kind of stretched out. And the teacher often says, if you want to get down on your forearms as opposed to on your hands, it'll stretch you out even more. So I try to do that. And it always hurts. I've never done that without it feeling like, ⁓ man, this hurts. And I realize,

that one of the reasons it hurts is that I'm so tense because I think it's gonna hurt. And I had this moment of thinking, what if I just assumed it wasn't going to hurt? What if I assumed it was gonna be fine? What if I assumed that discomfort is just okay? All these feelings of what if I changed my mind while I'm in this position? And it was like something just went through me that said, hey, I'm already doing this better than I've ever done it.

because I'm not fighting it. Like I'm going to hurt myself so I'm all tensed up. I let the muscles go. And of course that can be easily extended to things that I fight in life. What if I just let it happen the way it's going to happen and didn't tense up? Stressed, didn't get all stressed out. cuts me off in traffic. What if I just observed, okay, I feel like myself getting angry. I feel that. What if I just...

exhale and went, okay, he cut me off. Think about how many lives would be saved if people could just not road rage or, you know. We have to bring this discussion to the 405 in LA, because all those people that give you the finger when you cut them off. Yeah. If they blew you a kiss instead and said, I really appreciate that, thank you so much. I feel better now.

We'd save lives. You're right. We save lives. And it all, you know, it all starts, it all starts with our own thoughts, right? So that thought comes up, observe the thought, the thought passes. It's like, you are not the thought. You're the observer of the experience of the thought.

And it's not like that's not that's not like you're ⁓ you're running away from something, you know, you're actually still fully you feel everything in the body like you feel it. You're just like it's the opposite of running away. Actually, it's like I'm going to sit with this. OK, something painful has happened. I'm going through a divorce or I'm like, you know, I got laid off. There's this anxiety. There's this fear. Well, instead of, you know, instead of going to get drunk at the bar, instead of doing this, what if I just like sat for 20 minutes and just

observed where this sensation of fear and anxiety is happening in my body, what would happen? Well, I think what I what I learned from all those negative experiences, and I learned it way too late in my life is something like that that you describe happens. How about I just accept it? That's the next thing that happened. Not woe is me. I can't believe this happened to me. I just accept it. That's what happened. Yeah.

And I and I can't undo it. can't wind the clock back. I'm just gonna what do I do with this information? I don't know. It's just that thought makes Yeah, things better and that acceptance. You can feel it. You feel it in your body. It's just as expansive lifting. Like if you just if you just go you know what fuck it like there's nothing I can do about this. I'm letting it go. I'm letting it out to God or I'm giving it to the universe. It's like not that it's easy. It's not things that are tremendously painful. Yeah.

difficult, ⁓ you think, whoa, is me. That's bad luck. Someone you love is hurting. Any of those things that are, you know, it's not like, OK, ⁓ cool. It's not that it's cool. It's just I have to learn a way to accept that this is the reality. And what can I do? I mean, the best thing is what can I do for that person?

instead of woe. Or for yourself, right? If you're going through it. And then that really engenders compassion and self-love and, ⁓ you know, dignity for yourself that this is like, okay, well, I'm not going to beat the shit out of myself because this happened, right? And most of us do. At the very least, I think you're giving yourself the space to respond instead of react, right? Let's take the road rage thing, for example, right? Just that extra breath or that extra second you take.

can be the difference between life and death, right? Because a blind reaction, you'll want to cut that person off in retaliation and all of a sudden, he's got a gun or like whatever, like that's an extreme example, but just think just that in a space. to pause is a great skill. Yeah, and I mean, you're in Hollywood for years. mean, you're dealing with, you're in the land of reactive egos. my God.

the battle of the egos in that place just must be through the roof, right? And cause you're in a universe where it's not, it's not like accounting where it's a right number and a wrong number. It's my taste is better than your taste. My resume is stronger than your resume. That's why we're going to do it my way or the highway. And so you're not fighting facts. You're fighting feelings.

And but really, it's like my self worth is more fragile than your self worth. So I need we need to protect me. So it's it's nice not to be there. So people don't realize I can dip in and out. Is there anybody is there anybody in your career that you worked in? There must be that you worked with that really embodied that was that was talented and and successful, but that really embodied that that that yogi sort of spirit of space and like the

that's that that yogic spirit of reflection and observance and responding in a way that's more like I had a higher vibration. Is there anybody that comes to mind? Yeah, there's there's somebody who I always felt taught me everything. And there's another I learned great things from two people who were like that. The first was on the movie I did Mambo Kings. There was a

NYU New York University professor of Latin music who helped me with making the record. He was really an expert and I wasn't.

And he was like the best arranger, orchestrator, musician I'd ever been near in many ways. And he was unbelievably humble and self-effacing. And I'd never seen that in Hollywood. Needless to say, this was in New York City. So he was a New Yorker. come up in the Bronx. He had studied music. He was now a professor at NYU of Afro Latin music and

He was the most elegant, quiet, self-effacing guy. And I thought, this gentleman, Ray Santos, may he rest in peace, combined the two things that I find the most precious, aptitude and attitude. They're different by one letter. His aptitude was unparalleled. He was absolutely the most capable arranger I'd ever been near.

He was just fabulously musical. And his attitude was, shucks, don't compliment me. It's the musicians. ⁓ shucks, don't tell me that's a great thing. It's really the way the song was written. He never took credit. I've never seen anybody do that so magnificently. I loved him. I really loved him ⁓ and admired him and learned from him.

There was also a director that I was always extremely impressed with his approach and that was a great director named Ang Lee. And Ang Lee, I did two movies with him. One was called Ice Storm and one was Life of Pi. And Ang Lee was just very thoughtful and did not react, responded.

I watched him go through a lot of shit from people less talented, less visionary. And you can imagine those people were studio executives that were nervous about things in Life of Pi, particularly. we can't do that. no, that's too. that's not enough. And Ang would listen and they'd leave the room and I'd...

I would be in the room with him. He'd look at me and say, well, we got to fix this. ⁓ And he figured out ways to fix things where he hadn't given up his vision one bit, but he had heard what was.

And so you, you know, I really admire that ability because it's so collaborative. Right. That business that if you say to everybody my way, and there are a lot of people like that, I don't even want to tell you how many people are like, I mean, you worked on, you worked on Avatar. think James Cameron's probably a like that. Right. Yeah. The hard part about James Cameron is that he's usually right. So it's hard to tough guy to work for. Yeah. He didn't want a song at the end of Titanic. I mean, he was absolutely adamant.

You didn't want that song Celine Dion song. You just didn't want it. You can't have Jack die in the freezing cold water and then what you're here a song. That's ridiculous. No. Let's just say, well, he wasn't really what? Yeah, things worked out. Things worked out. Yeah. You got it. Yeah, I think, yeah, that's great. That's a great story about a. Yeah.

What's my heaven? I some questions for you here that I think I've I've been boring enough for too long. I a lot of this is going to get edited out. No, not much. ⁓ shoot. Well, I've been trying to keep them under an hour and half, so I think we can wrap it up. we're good. ⁓ you supervised to you, you supervised the Simpsons, X-Files and Family Guy. Yeah, that was a little more on. It is true, but they were.

that thankfully was a little more autopilot ⁓ in that.

The real heavy lifting in my job at the studio was the films. Each film was original. Each film had unbelievable number of problems. Each film had original music, had to be recorded. know, Simpsons, arrived, Simpsons is probably in its eighth season, and by the time I left, it was in its 28th, something like that. It was on autopilot. Tuesday mornings from 10 to 1. ⁓

There was a recording session on the recording studio stage that was down the street from my office on the 20th Century Fox lot. It's a magnificent recording studio. 10 to 1, they do the music for the next episode or two episodes. And there wasn't a whole lot. Nobody was saying, is this music OK? They were on a, they were like production. Same with X-Files. There's Cook Out of Cookie Cutter at that point, but they were still writing.

They were still writing Family Guy. I close to Seth MacFarlane, the guy who did it. He actually recorded a song I'd written for something else years before on Family Guy. And then he wanted to make an album and we made an album together. Seth MacFarlane and I that no one has ever heard to this day called that came out on Interscope Records called Family Guy Does Vegas. Right. And we he did all the voices.

And we had characters doing like kind of like a Rat Pack stuff and then doing big band songs. It was ridiculous. But he wanted to do it. We did it with a big band. We cut it. We released it on Interscope Records. Nobody heard it or cared. Yeah, it was fun. All of it was fun. And I'm so glad you asked these questions for one reason. I've forgotten half the things I've.

had the great privilege of working on. I'd forgotten that Family Guy record. What an adventure.

Well, Robert, it was great chatting with you. thank you. Always great. ⁓ we hang out here on ⁓ deserted island. It inspires me to, I love this. Actually, I really like this podcast format because I love, I'm very curious and I know interesting people and I can find interesting people. And also I think people

you know, this format, people are in their cars and they're driving and they're listening. Like you're driving in your car right now and you're listening to this. And they're thinking, who, what else are you going to do? You can't be on your phone. You got to drive and you got to listen. And in a way I'm glad that we're not recording video because when you, it's audio, know, people may not don't know what you look like. They don't know what I look like. So you're creating that, that movie in your head of us talking. So I'm six foot seven. He's very handsome.

⁓ it's just movie star and, ⁓ he's married ladies. So back off. That's funny. That's actually a, something is funny. I think it's a perfect place to end. One of the pictures I did, which I loved, which no one saw was called that thing you do. was Tom Hanks and a kind of fake band. And at one point the lead singer in the band is on his first TV appearance and something appears below him.

on in print on the screen says he's married not available girls and he saw the TV playback and he was furious why'd you put that on anyhow okay more stories for the next one Robert Kraft it was a pleasure having you and we'll talk to you again soon I appreciate it all right brother take care

Martin P Prihoda (00:01)

Welcome to the Odyssey and Alchemy, a space to explore the journey inward and the transformation that unfolds from it. I'm your host, Martin Prihoda, and my hope is that these conversations help light the path towards wholeness, connection, and a deeper sense of shared humanity as we navigate this fast-changing exponential age together. Here, you'll hear from inspiring voices in the physical, mental, and spiritual wellbeing space, people who are helping shape a more mindful and meaningful future.

If you enjoy what you hear, please like, subscribe and share. I'm so glad you're here. Let's dive in.

Martin P Prihoda (00:33)

Welcome to the Odyssey Alchemy podcast.

Martin P Prihoda (00:52)

All right, today we welcome Aaron Lyons, a visionary director and lead consultant at Just Outcomes Consulting, a pioneer in restorative justice and peace building. With over 20 years of global experience from Arctic indigenous communities to the Middle East, his trauma-informed approach transforms conflict into growth and healing. Today we unpack reimagining justice through heartfelt presence, arts-based dialogues, and resilient community building.

Aaron, welcome to the show. Thanks for the invitation. Appreciate it. It's great to have you on. And I remember when we first met, I was very impressed with the work you were doing, specifically with reconciliation between, perpetrators of crime and their victims. That's just a fascinating topic. how did you get into that? Yeah, so this has been a lifelong passion of mine.

⁓ Ever since I can remember really I had my first peer mediation training when I was in elementary school as a guy on here on Salt Spring named Gordon Sloan he came into the school and Taught us how to resolve conflicts. I was way too scared to actually do it, but I did have the training at grade four or whatever and then when I was in high school, I got into outdoor leadership in a heavy way and I was involved in ⁓ island escapades camp here and

was leading kids into the wilderness. And I realized that, you know, as much as I love the outdoors, what fascinated me the most was the dynamics and the who do we become when things get tough in the wilderness, right? And the communication and leadership patterns and the facilitation work. And so I began to study and to do training and to develop that passion.

And ⁓ for me ever since, it's been about, in a way, I see the work that I do as being a guide. And a guide is not always somebody who has the answers, but it's also somebody who can bring people to a threshold and let them explore answers for themselves. so, you know, over time, ⁓ I added layers to my training. I was working in the youth justice system as a youth worker for young people in conflict of the law who are on probation and

forced by judges and probation officers to attend to substance use issues. And so I got told to fuck off a lot in my early career until I learned to try to come alongside these kids, right? And instead of opposing them. And so there was an orientation shift that had to happen for me, mostly through mistakes. ⁓ And then, you know, I...

I actually took my first restorative justice training from an indigenous teacher named Mark Wedge, who was here on Salt Spring Island. He inspired me. It was a circle process training. He brought together a huge number of people from Salt Spring. I don't remember how many were there. And we sat in this circle that just allowed for a kind of a humility and honesty, a respect, an ability to transcend that really just touched me.

And so I set out on a path of doing that kind of work. I ended up doing a master's degree in the United States and conflict transformation and restorative justice. had some great mentorship. I got to travel to New Zealand and work in the youth justice system there, which is very deeply motivated by restorative justice principles and in conversation between Maori indigenous citizens and the white Pakeha population in New Zealand, in Aotearoa.

⁓ Very formative time. And all of this just, ⁓ you know, fed passion and eventually I decided to come back to Canada with my wife and we ⁓ set ourselves up in Langley and I worked with Community Justice Initiatives for many years. It's a non-profit organization that really pioneered the work of restorative justice in serious and violent crime. It's now a program that exists across Canada. ⁓

I'm no longer directly involved in the program, but I think about it a lot and it helps shape sort of my practice and the consulting work that I do. But essentially there, you know, it's not about reconciliation per se, but what it is about is meeting the needs of people who have been involved and impacted by crime. And in this case, very serious crime, including murder, sexual violence, and many others that...

that leave people scarred and changed for perhaps their whole lifetimes. And so the process is really one about exploring what do people need in the aftermath of a harm and how can that be addressed by the other people or in relationship to the other people who were involved. And so reconciliation might be a part of that for people, but others might want nothing to do with it, right? For them, it might be about

answering questions that have been unanswered that only the person responsible can answer, right? Questions like why or how or what was, ⁓ you know, this takes us to a deep place, but like what were the last words of my loved one, right? Those kinds of questions. And so I can think of an example where, you know, I was involved in facilitating a conversation between a

who had lost a child in a terrible crash and the person who was responsible for the crash, the car crash. And, you know, in that conversation, I remember the mother really just touching deeply on the rage. And there was no sympathy in what she had to share, but there was also no dehumanization.

Right. It wasn't about attacking the character of the other. It was about her chance to just express as deeply as she wanted to ⁓ the pain of the loss and the pain of what had come after. Right. In terms of all the court appeals and denial and all of that. And when it was done, I remember speaking to her and saying, so when this other person gave their apology, you know, did you believe them? And

She said to me, you know, the beauty of this process was that I don't care. I'm not about needing to believe or disbelieve. I'm not actually tied anymore to the character of that other person that has been consuming me for so long. I want nothing to do with them anymore. I want to get them out of my mind. I also don't necessarily want anything to do with you guys who facilitated, no offense, right? But I'm gonna take the next step in

right? And so it was anything but reconciliation, but it was powerfully healing actually for both. think the person, the prisoner in this case who heard it, she needed to hear it. And she knew that it was important for her and how she navigates the world and right relationships. Right, right. So were these both female? There was a mom and another the driver was a woman? Yes. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, in that case. Yeah.

Is there any example you can give or any experience you've had where a perpetrator of a crime and a victim of crime are able to resolve their relationship to such an extent where they become friends? Yes. So one of the first stories that I ever heard about restorative justice actually was not a case...

I was involved with, I'll share it with you anyway because it had such an impact on me, which was the case of Katie Hutchison, ⁓ which was very public. So, you know, she's told her story in many venues. And so it's not, you know, it's not breaking any confidence here. Katie was in Squamish, I think it was in early 90s or in the 80s, late 80s when ⁓ she ⁓ and her husband, ⁓

tried to intervene, her husband tried to intervene in a house party next door that had gone wild. There was hundreds of teenagers there. And when Bob went over to the house, he was swarmed by a bunch of drunk teenagers and he was murdered that night. And after a long period of time,

I think it was over a decade.

Katie came to a place where she wanted to meet directly with the youth responsible. And she ended up having several meetings with ⁓ one of the youth in particular. And they ended up in a friendship. They ended up ⁓ touring around together and talking about their experience. And it was this.

powerful healing transformed moment. And I would say they do have a friendship. ⁓ In my own work, ⁓ I don't know if I would describe the outcomes as friendship, but I'm thinking of a story, for example, where ⁓ a woman had...

Interestingly, I told the story already about losing somebody to ⁓ a drunk driving crash. And this was another similar type of story, although the person who was killed was an adult. The mother of this man had decided that she wanted to meet with the driver.

was responsible. Now this driver, he was incarcerated and he had been in a very painful, ⁓ difficult part of his life and he was numbing himself on all kinds of opiates and other drugs and he was drinking and when he got behind the wheel and he just sped right through an intersection and that's when he took the life of this other man.

And this mother was sitting across from this prisoner and, you know, he was, she asked him to talk a bit about, you know, his life and his experiences. And it was clear that there had never been anybody in his life that had said the words, I believe in you. And

At one point in the conversation, that's what he heard from this mother. And she said to him, you know, I believe in you, that you can change, that you can get off the drugs. You know, even in prison, there's all kinds of opportunities if you have an addiction to continue furthering that. And she said,

I believe in you and I need you to do this in memory of my son.

And when we ended the meeting, you could see how visibly shaken he was. And he said, like, nobody's ever said those words to me. And to hear it from her is something I can't forget. And so it was some time later, I remember ⁓ calling this mother and just checking in with her and

she's like, well, I can't talk for long because I'm actually just heading to the halfway house where this man is. ⁓ Because, ⁓ you know, my family and I, we decided to get him a new bike for the holiday. my gosh. You know, and we want to check up on him. That's so inspiring. So inspiring, right? Just the bigness of heart. Yeah. And what's clear is that

So they've they stayed in touch and and you know to my knowledge he hasn't used again. I don't know their stories now but what I can say is that for her that gesture is not just about it's not just about charity right right it's not just about you know wanting wanting to give or

or an altruistic place. I would describe it as meaning making. would describe it as... Yeah, I was gonna say that her son's death has meaning because it sort of saved this person. So many survivors would say something along the lines of, I would never wish this to have happened. I would never wish it on anybody else. And because it happened, it's made me into who I am now. Right?

And so there's that sense of being able to, again, re narrate the story, re narrate the story of the trauma into something that gives life and that creates meaning. And for her, you know, being able to make a difference in this one man's life and to say like this, you know, this pattern shall end this pattern that had such devastating life ending, you know, consequences in my own experience. I have, I have some power here.

and in memory of my son. is what I want. It's almost like she got a little part of her son back with that. Hmm. In that he has his, his spirit sort of is now living through this new person through his that new person's new journey. And right. don't know. That's an interesting way to immortalizing. Well, it's like, it's like, you know, you hear the stories of somebody dies in a car crash, and they're able to harvest an organ and they put that organ into somebody that was that needed it. And

then those two people meet. And so now this mother is meeting this person that has her son's heart or her son's, and it's just like a part of that, part of her son is now living in this new human, in this other human. so it's kind of like that from a spiritual point of view. I think that's an interesting way of looking at it. And I think she even said something in that dialogue about, you know, since I don't have a son to love, I'm going to be given some of that to you. Wow.

You know, is so powerful.

what are some of the

fundamental challenges you face in this kind of work? Like what are some of the things you bump up against a lot?

Well, there's so many. mean, we live in a world, don't we, where...

working in dialogue, where building bridges, where taking a healing approach to harm, where collaboration, all of these things are counter-cultural. Sometimes I feel as though we are swimming upstream or banging our head against a wall, right? So the challenges are, there are many. mean, so.

The first being we're operating in systems that are designed to operate by a different logic, right? So our punitive conventional justice system is obviously designed to operate in a way that, primarily about a contest between the offender and the state, right? It's about who did it, what do they deserve, what kind of punishment do they need, what laws were broken and what do we do to them, right?

And so to create a space where we're actually asking about the survivors or where we're actually asking about what it takes to heal or to make right or to be accountable, not just in a passive way, not just in a way that ⁓ where we accept punishment and defer to authority, but active repair, active empathy, active change. ⁓ Those things are not taught to us, right? They're not taught to us in schools either.

You know, I remember experiences where I got in trouble in school or in the community. And I remember learning very clearly that the goal was not to take responsibility. You know, it to ensure that we were as blameless as possible. so or what I experienced is that the sanctions on my behavior

were primarily about isolation and shame. And it was about how to, so you punish, right? But does that really do anything to address the behavior? Or in the worst case scenario, it actually fuel some of the pain and shame and sense of not okayness that's driving these behaviors in the first place, right? And so,

as retribution might be if you listen to people like James Gilligan, theorists in the field of violence, these might be fundamental drivers of why we commit violence as opposed to the things that might prevent them. So we have got it quite wrong in our society in terms of understanding these things and addressing them. And it's strange, right? Because if I were to ask you,

Like what do you think should happen after this harmful event occurred? What should happen for the survivor or the victim? What should happen for the person who's responsible for the harm and what should happen with our community? You'd probably tell me some very common sense things, right? You'd wanna hear about, you'd wanna see that the victim or survivor received some compensation or that they...

had answers to questions that were unanswered and that they were believed and that they were validated and that they were supported and that they received genuine remorse from the people who did it, you know, and assurances that this kind of thing is not going to be happening to them or their loved ones or their community, right? You would probably say that responsible parties should, you know, yes, sometimes there's restraint involved if people are committing crimes or, or

being violent or abusive towards others. But you'd also want them to be accountable, genuinely, right? You'd probably want them to learn from what they did. You'd probably want them to be also treated as humans, et cetera. And ⁓ those things are folded in together. We can't be accountable unless we're treated as humans. ⁓ And so, and what would you want for community? Well, you'd probably want the community to grow and to be responsible as a community for.

these kinds of things and to prevent future harms, right? And the same kinds of responses and the values underlying those kinds of responses would be present in all different sectors. You could ask kids, you could ask corporate CEOs, you could ask legal professionals, and if they take their professional hats off, they give you the same kind of answers. And we've done this through our training, right? And so why is it that...

these common sense kind of responses don't play out as our norms, right? And I think there's a lot to unpack there. I don't have the answers to that. But I think we're in a position in our society where we are starting to unearth some of these things where, yes, there's a trend towards greater polarization, there's a trend towards competition and these

values are being modeled for us in a very garish and upfront kind of way in our politics, in our economics, et cetera. But there's also a real questioning, I think, happening about all of that and about the norms that have shaped us and about the institutions that we've relied on and how do these things need to change. so, I mean, for what it's worth, we're increasingly getting

You know, we do get a lot of calls, the consultancy that I work with, Just Outcomes, from all kinds of organizations, from the healthcare system to the military to faith communities to nonprofit organizations and people within the criminal justice system asking, okay, how do we do things differently? Like we know something's not working and we need to do better. ⁓

So I think what's interesting about your work is that you're privy to a much more nuanced understanding of justice. Whereas I think the way the media portrays the justice system is very binary and often very sensationalized. So you've got the guilty and you've got the non-guilty. You've got the victim and then the perpetrator. And beyond the court case and beyond the verdict,

you know, that person goes to jail and that person moves on. There's no really any further questions asked about the nuances of healing and, you know, maybe why this perpetrator acted in the way because maybe they were a victim at one point too, right? So the system wasn't designed for that. Well, that's what I mean. Yeah. Yeah. Because I think we live in that. I don't know if it's our mind or society, but we just we live in that binary.

We want the right and wrong, we want the black and white, we want things to be cut and dry, but they very, very rarely, if ever, are that cut and dry. That's right. Yeah. Actually, one of my great mentors, Howard Zare, who we studied with in the Center for Justice and Peacebuilding in Virginia, would talk about paradox as being one of the principles or characteristics within the mindset of restorative justice work. The ability to hold paradox.

because it's so true, like being able to have a yes and approach, like yes, this person commit harms and they were also the victim of harms. That's, I mean, that's fundamentally true. And yet we don't talk about that and or ⁓ the paradox of, you know, when we're in conflict, you know, how we can have, ⁓ you know, both valid perspectives and also

come at it with a whole lot of delusion, you know, and these things are all true. And so just the ability to hold multiple truths at the same time, you know, that's one of the things I see as greatly lacking in our discourse, right? When you look at, you know, take any polarizing issue, know, take, you know, vaccines during COVID, take, you know, Israel, Palestine, take, you know,

Republican versus Democrat, whatever, you name it, all these polarizing issues. And the ability to hold multiple truths and saying, yes, there's probably something true and legitimate on that other side, quote unquote, that I need to understand in order for us to know each other is lacking, shockingly so.

And so that's what you asked about challenges. That's one of the personal challenges that I have is being able to, how do we step into that place collectively? I'd love to know. Yeah, and it's not even just these big global issues. It's just, know, families, Dealing with intra-family conflict and just how we can best communicate. ⁓

how we can best navigate and communicate around those issues. And I guess one thing I was gonna ask you was, you what is some of the language that is helpful to use ⁓ for people who are navigating conflict within their lives? you know, like taking a step back, because we're all sort of, you know, Palestine, Israel, and those are all the big topics that occupy our political minds, but.

those are all sort of reflections, I think, too, of what happens inside the individual. it's my belief that if we can, from an individual perspective, learn these skills within ourselves, how we speak to ourselves, how we deal with conflict in our own lives, that that knowledge will then blossom out into the rest of the world. So what kind of...

What kind of language can we use in our own lives or what kind of approaches can we have in our own lives that will ripple out and be beneficial to greater causes or to the world around us? Yeah, great question. Yeah, and I'll just add, I think you're right that this is an individual question and it is an individual problem and that we as individuals are seeds for change, right? But I also...

I think we should bring into the fold the reality that so many of our individual choices are not under conditions of our own choosing. And so for example, polarization is great commerce in social media. These platforms are now designed to produce it. And it's extremely beneficial to their bottom line to have us arguing through our echo chambers.

And so, you know, that's so how do we combat polarization? mean, yes, being smart about what we read and looking for multiple information sources and, for example, not believing everything that you hear on the Internet as being true, all important, right? But also there's a structural problem. There's there's, know, how are how are we being set up for success or not by these?

these political and economic systems. And there's many examples you could say about that. So yes, we have power, but part of that power is to act on that macro level ⁓ and to hope that we can invoke more life-giving systems too. And that's part of the bridge that we try to build in our consulting work is that this is about, it's about individuals, but it's also about system change.

And those things are interconnected. And it's in a complex and dynamic and living kind of way. ⁓ So yeah, I mean, with that said, guess, so on the individual level, I I think if we can get clear on our values in conflict, that's number one. So if we were to ask ourselves a question like,

Imagine that you have a difficult conversation coming up about a very sensitive issue with somebody you love and appreciate deeply. Right. So just, you know, not while you're in the moment, but like just putting yourself outside of it for a moment, thinking about what you would want to be true about you. Let's say in relationship to your to your brother or to your spouse or to your parent, you know, in a difficult time, what are those qualities? Right. And most most of us would say things like, well,

I would hope that I'd be curious. I'd hope that I'd be humble. I'd hope that I'd be honest. I'd hope that I'd show up with respect. I'd hope that I would listen ⁓ with an eye for what's going to satisfy both of us in this. I hope I would be slow to judge. Those kinds of things, right? These kind of what you might say are universal human qualities of being in relationship with each other.

right, a relational view of the world, right? What matters when we care about relationships? And so from there, it becomes a question of how do we more deeply root ourselves in those values? Like curiosity for me is a big one. ⁓ It's one that I try to remind myself of a lot and it's one that we teach about. ⁓ And, you know, it's in some ways at the root of all of it. ⁓

you know, and so even if we just took that one word, right, and try to apply that into these, like the Thanksgiving dinner family conflict that got heated over some political issue or whatever, ⁓ how would that how would that change the tone? know, it's it's interesting, because I think those qualities you had mentioned just pre just now are those are what I would sort of consider very high vibrational.

qualities. mean, that's really a human being that's operating from that place is, I would say at a at a consciously an elevated level. You know, I think I think most of us really go through periods of defensiveness, you know, ⁓ you want things to be better, but you also want to be right. So and you know, there's an identity to defend.

That's like the famous quote from the Buddha is to identify as is to suffer as and the more we hold on to this identity of I need to be right, that this ego that the more difficult those qualities you had mentioned are, can come through. Those qualities can't really come through unless you're willing to release that identity and that ego. And that can be a very terrifying thing for people because you have to admit maybe at some point that you could have done things better or you were wrong or.

You know, so there's this, I think it's an issue of vulnerability too. I think if you're going to heal or you want things to get better, you have to be willing to be vulnerable. I think you're right. Yeah. And I think that that brings us into a pretty interesting terrain in a way, because I don't know that we can ever give up that sense of pride or needing to be right or the identity, at least.

those of us who are just mortals, you know, I can't. I'm definitely in that camp for sure. And I don't know if it's desirable either, because I've also seen people in conflict who are so far on the spectrum of curiosity and humility that they forget to advocate for themselves. Right. And I think that does a disservice, too, because if we forget to advocate for ourselves, ⁓ well, a few things can happen.

⁓ One is that the contributions that we might make to the world don't get made. Right, right. Our voice is silenced. Another is that we get pissed. Yeah, resentful. was gonna say resentment comes up. Yes, absolutely. And it just bottles up. And eventually, it's the pressure cooker effect. And that lid is coming off eventually. Yeah, first for many people. Yeah. And that's not good. ⁓ But I also don't think it serves the other person. Like, let's say you have somebody acting abusively.

And if your whole approach is to be like, tell me more about where that behavior is coming from. I mean, that's. That's a wise question, right? Or like, you know, or wise stance. They might not be able to answer the question like that, but, but, but also we need to be able to say, you know, how you're acting right now towards me and towards others is not okay. It's not acceptable. It needs to stop. And, and so it's like the marriage of those.

to things and I think that that's in a way like what, that's the path, right? It's finding like how do we be both in real relationship and humble and curious and evoking the other person's needs and the underlying values and their emotions and their experiences, all of it, be there for them. But at the same time,

expect things of them, hold them accountable, right? Require boundaries. Yes, all of those things. And, you know, I know for me as a human, as a man, like all of this, those that that bringing together maybe it's the in and the out, I don't know, you know, that confluence, it feels like it's the great work of being in this field is bringing those things together. you're too far on one side or the other.

then you end up either being very accommodating, like we've just been talking about, or you end up being kind of an asshole because you're just all about getting your way. Right. Right. And nobody wants to be around a person like that. No. Yeah. I mean, at least I don't. No, no, I agree. I mean, I think I think every relationship you have in the world with anybody else is it's a direct reflection of the relationship you have with yourself. I think if you were ⁓

You know, like if you were an enlightened yogi and ⁓ you had this wholeness, this integration of self, it would be very difficult to treat somebody else with any kind of disrespect or any kind of meanness. I just don't think it would be possible. You could treat them in a way that this is my boundaries, you can't do that, you can be firm with them. But I think if you've done the work in healing yourself and you know,

becoming whole within yourself, that is gonna reflect into all your relationships. But I think if you're deeply fragmented and broken, I think you can fake it for a while with people, but I think it's gonna just catch up. So I think, you know, my personal belief is that it's the inner work first, and then the cup overflows outwards, which is what it sounds like you've done from an early age. It's like, to heal the world, you heal yourself, or vice versa.

Yeah, and there too, you know, it's like here goes the conflict brain in terms of the yes and right? There's, I think there's great truth in that, you know, like we, if we are not healed, if we're acting from a wounded place, then yeah, we're going to be enacting wounds onto others. You know, there's an expression that says hurt people, hurt people. Exactly. Right. And it's just, it's so true and it's fundamental. And at the same time,

You know, I'll share with you that, you know, I come from a Jewish lineage and background. And one of the expressions in in Hebrew is not save a Nishma. And the expression there basically means first you do and then you hear or understand like first do then get it. Right. Right.

And I think that that's true in this work as well, where sometimes we just have to do the right thing as best we know or as best we're taught. And then the lessons of that unfold as healing, right? You know, it's like if I were to do something generous for a person, I might be feeling super stingy at the time, right? I might just not be in that place.

And, you know, and the tradition would would teach me to give anyway. And then eventually, maybe I'll start feeling more generous. Right. Interesting. And so I think there's a there's a give and take. Sometimes we have to lead with behavior. you know, early earlier you you asked about language and. I don't think I really answered your question, but I think that's one of those pieces like like, for example, if we if we train ourselves to to be to be able to use.

open-ended questions that don't lead people into certain ⁓ responses or aren't embedded with accusation or judgment. Just truly learn the art of good questions, right? Like many of the questions you've been asking today. Or if we're able to listen to people in a way that reflects back to them what we've been hearing in the deeply empathic way, right? To be able to say, I'm

I'm getting this from you and I honor that, right? Those are skills, right? Those are conflict resolution 101 kind of skills, paraphrasing, empathic listening, open-ended questions, et cetera. Sometimes when we apply those skills, we then end up getting it. You know what I mean? We can move ourselves towards more curiosity, towards...

towards a greater sense of actual empathy. And so there's that kind of take. Yeah. Yeah. also, ⁓ there's, think, as well, the intentionality behind what you're trying to do versus what is the intention of what you're trying to accomplish. Am I really trying to heal this and move on and be the best, or am I just trying to be right? And I think ⁓ the latter has made a lot of

divorce lawyers very rich. Absolutely. Because people get dug in, right? I have to be right. So there's there's that there's a blockage. And I think unless you sort of work with the end result in mind that my intention is to provide to heal this relationship. Yeah. And then so then when you hit a roadblock, like, let's say, you know, you want to heal a relationship with a family member or a friend, you know, you might you might come

that you might say, well, I'm going to call this person and my intention is to heal this relationship, but you might call them and they might just shut you down at first. Right. And so then you become hurt by that. And so then your defenses come up. But I think if that intentionality remains, then you can, okay, I'll try a second time. I'll try a third time. Yeah. You know, so again, it comes down to that whole ego thing, I think. And identity. I think you're right to bring up intention. It is a huge.

piece of the puzzle here. I have also share that I've gotten very discouraged about that at times because I've looked around at the world and I've thought there's no intention to do anything other than to be right. Like if you look at these polarized conflicts, people are actually quite happy to stay in that righteous indignation. And even at the cost of relationships,

It was once taught to me that you can either be right or you can be in relationship, but you can't be both, right? So people are very happy to choose rightness over relationship or over relationship with their adversaries. mean, certainly rightness in the case of polarized conflict often sets you up as an ally to other people who believe that that message is right. You know, if you're in this camp, right, that we're right together, right? Right. So it it becomes

identity forming, right? We that that's delicious for us as humans, we want to belong, we want to have have this scent, this kind of fuel injected in identity of like being a part of this thing that well, that's why that's why the social media algorithms are so powerful, right? Because it identifies it just it can identify you. That's right. It's getting better and better at it. So this person is left, left wing, this person's

a Trump supporter, this person is pro-Israel, this person's pro-Palestine, and it'll just feed you your narrative, and it'll strengthen it. And I just, that's what I feel like is happening, is it's this tribalism that's happening in the world because of these algorithms and the way people are being fed information and believing it, that it's getting harder and harder to just be like, I wanna try to understand the other person's point of view. ⁓ You know? And I mean,

Let's take the granddaddy of all conflict is, you know, Israel, Palestine, right? It's just, everybody, you know, relates to that conflict in some way, shape or form. This is something that's been going on for thousands of years. Like the sides are so dug in. Do you believe that there can be any resolution at this point between these two groups of people? ⁓

There has to be. It's a tough one. So is a tough one. I was going to share that, you know, when it comes to the algorithm on this issue, my, my social media is a mess because I like, I don't know, I might've broken the computer or something. Cause like, I get just as much pro Israel and pro Palestine stuff coming at me from both sides. You're outsmarting the algorithm. Just, you know, it doesn't know what to do with me. Right. And it doesn't.

actually know what to do with anybody in the peace building world, ⁓ nor do the human beings involved. I mean, when I've posted ⁓ writings about Israel-Palestine, I can count on it being met with ⁓ vigorous resistance and ⁓ vehement responses on quote unquote both sides, right? That's just what you need to predict if you're gonna write.

on social media about these issues. ⁓

You know, for me, I spent a year living in Jerusalem when I was in my early 20s. After that, I got involved in a program that was geared towards bringing Israeli and Palestinian youth together, along with Canadian youth, mainly in their late teens and early 20s, to have dialogue geared towards understanding. Obviously, these kids are not...

at that stage in their lives going to be able to resolve ⁓ the macro So this program was like geographically in the Middle East or was it here in Canada? geographically in Canada. It was Vancouver and it involved traveling to the region to build partners and to recruit and those kinds of things. But no, the program was here. We'd often situated in beautiful settings like in the mountains or on the coast for the dialogue work. And then we would...

we over the years, the program was called piece it together. It's not operating now. And I guess we can say it didn't work. Interesting. mean, I say that in cheeky way. I say it didn't work because look what's happening in the region. But of course, you know, the impact of these things is not linear. It's not easily measurable, right. But from a direct perspective, when these kids got together, did you see some sort of healing or was there dialogue or was there

were huge. There was, ⁓ beautiful. Just amazing. Yeah. Huge amounts of everything. Really? of emotion. Those circles were some of the most emotional and heated I've ever been a part of, even after having facilitated conversations about the murder of a loved one. You know, this is, so I'm saying that issue is as charged as it gets. It goes so deep and

You know, these kids were really courageous and they would come and they would talk about their perspectives. Usually there was a period of. Shying away from the more difficult issues and part of our jobs facilitators was to go about the work of conflict creation like putting some of the elephants in the room to be named and then, you know. And then trying to tend to the fire right where the fire needs enough.

It needs enough fuel to burn in a good way, but it also needs to not burn out of control. Right. And so how do we, you know, give it air and keep it in a way that's, that's, that's serving us, that's heating us, that's bringing life, you know, rather than it being this, you know, forest fire. Right. And, and so in that there was, you know, all kinds of emotions, right. But what, certainly one of the things that came forward was

friendship, ⁓ understanding, deep, deep understanding that wouldn't have happened before. We were making films together as well. So after we had a chance to connect and dialogue, there were trained filmmakers who would come and assist in the production of films. was groups of Israeli, Palestinian, and Canadian youth that would, you know, form into a film team and have to create something together. Right. So really standing in the hot seat with that. That's really cool.

Yeah, and look, mean...

It's a deeply intractable situation. It's a situation where if we want to as a human family, if we want to sit in place of who's right, of what do I deserve, of how do I protect mine and even at the expense of yours, if we want to...

stay tribal about it, then it's gonna keep going. It's gonna keep going. So from my perspective, the shift is one that's both necessary and almost impossible. It's a shift towards a whole different type of relationship with the quote unquote other.

And, you know, one of the things that has been on my mind a lot lately is some reading. ⁓ I read a book recently called Tomorrow is Yesterday, and I'm forgetting the name of the authors right now, but it's basically looking at the state of, these are former negotiators with the, I think the American and Palestinian sides during the Oslo process. And,

you know, in reading that book, becomes clear from the people who know it best that there was never...

Let me rewind that the circumstances are much poorer now than they ever were for building peace on the map. Like for a two state solution, for example. Like things were way more auspicious in terms of who's in leadership, in terms of the readiness of people and in terms of the state of pain and trauma. Then.

than they are now. So just to clarify, the things are harder now, because you said more auspicious, like things were way more auspicious then than they are now things are harder now. Yes. Okay. Yeah. Because I think in the I think in the 80s, they got a bit closer. Yes, exactly. And now, yeah, yeah. In, you know, throughout, there's been there's been what would seem at least from the outside to be getting closer, right, right. And the point of these authors is that

there was fundamental barriers that are beyond what we in the quote unquote public could appreciate about the situations that made it perhaps not as close as it looked. But even so, it was closer than it is now. And their conclusion is that the two-state solution is dead. And if you really think about that, where does that leave us?

And for me, it leads us towards a kind of thinking that has to be radically transformative. We have to think of ourselves and each other in a very different way if we can't carve up that map. Well, it's interesting because ⁓ it's February 20th, 2026. And, you know, it seems to me we are on the brink of something now in the Middle East that could be very transformative with what's happening.

specifically with Iran. ⁓ Hopefully, they can talk that down. ⁓ But it's looking more and more like ⁓ there might be something coming that could be quite ⁓ transformative in that region, whether it's the toppling of that regime. I don't know. It's, it's hard to say. I'm to get on board with hope. But I also I feel strongly that

This is a conflict where, unless we rewrite the rules about what it is to be human and what it is to be conflict in conflict with each other, and arrive at what I would think of as a different tier of relationship with our adversary, right? Unless we are capable of that in this situation, which is the hardest. Yeah, I don't see I don't see a lasting solution. I see more

manifestations of the same problem. Yeah, coming up again and again, over over over the coming years and centuries. So yeah, please prove me wrong. I Well, I hope. Yeah, it's that's a tough one that's that's happening right now. ⁓ Because obviously, war is not good for anyone. And it's not good for soccer for humans. It's not good for markets. It's not good for, you know, a lot of a lot of things great for identity, though.

Yeah, you want to be right, if you want to be right. And yet at the same time, there's this regime that, you know, what we've witnessed over the past few weeks, which is, you know, they've been quite brutal towards its own people, specifically in Iran. So there's party that wants that to end as well. But then spilling out of a great greater conflict could be much, worse. So it's nuanced. There's no there's no easy answer to it.

Yeah, I mean, these are such big forces. They're such big forces. It becomes partly an act of just hoping and trusting that humans will have some sense and that we won't end up in some kind of massive conflagration. I think we've all worried about that over the past years, right? When things are that tender in the Middle East and when there's no level of violence and just...

sort of this spreading of ego and hurt and pain and shame and oppression and all of it, it has implications for all of us. There's so many powers that are being tested in that. And so, you know, we like to think over in this corner of the world that we're safe, but I think all of us have had the question. Interconnected. I almost feel sometimes that we need that, you know, in Men in Black, the movie where they had that thing and, you know, they went.

And you got you were immediately amnesia like you you forgot everything. You remember how to remember I wish I could say I did. was pretty deprived of social. Okay, well, there is like vision as a child. It's like it's you know, it's the the the men in black agents wanted if you had seen the aliens or whatever they would have this they had this device that they flash in your eyes you would completely the complete amnesia you'd forget everything that you just saw. It's almost like we need that in the world to just give us a collective amnesia, you know.

So that all this all these all these past ancestral traumas can just be put to rest because I think that's it's like a snake that just winds itself through generations through generations and your grandfather hated my grandfather and his grandfather hated his it just goes on and it proliferates we we spent some time traveling as a family recently I may have told you when we first met and You know, I remember being in the former Yugoslavia and

listening to a man talk to me over coffee once ⁓ this man was living in Bosnia Herzegovina. And he said, I'll paraphrase it badly, but basically he said, I don't like history. I don't believe in history. I don't want any part of history. And that was, think his way of saying what you're saying is like, look where an understanding of history gets us, right? And yet,

you know, we derive as humans so much of ourselves from history and from like knowing where we've come from. But it's like, what are the stories that we want to tell ourselves about that? We can steep ourselves in the stories that make us the victim and then justify violence towards others. We're all capable of that. And we'd have absolute justification. Most of us who are part of groups who have

commit violence, ⁓ there's always a reason why it's legitimate. If you want to tell that story. And so at some point, do we need to just choose to tell a different story? I don't think it means cutting ourselves off from history, but it means telling a different story about our history, one that is somehow life-giving that...

opens a possibility for the other within our within our field and that, you know, somehow helps us break the cycle of violence. Right. And because these narratives are what drives the cycle of violence. we we can't. Yeah. Yeah. We probably can't get there through amnesia. So it's a question of how do we use story in a better way and how do we shape our own identities in a way that is true, but that also leaves

open the possibility of peace. Right. And so we have choices about our identities and we forget that it's really at our peril and it's at the peril of our global stability as well. This is why I'm such a proponent of waking up and then self-actualization because you know have to wake yourself up from the stupor of your lineage if they acted in a certain way you know.

For generations, let's say your family hated this group of people. mean, the Yugoslavia is a classic case, right? But it's all over the world. And just to wake up from that and be, know, we're human beings at our core from, you if you look at the yogic Sanskrit terms, have the atman, that personalized consciousness, know, the divinity within. Well, if I have that, then that person has that. Even though he identifies as a Muslim, I identify as a Christian and you identify as a Jew. Those are just,

larger identifications, but at our base level, at our core level, we all share that same spark of divinity. And if you can come from that space, you can override that part of you that says, no, I am Jewish. No, I am Muslim. And my whole identity is around that. Therefore, anybody that threatens that is the other. So that's what I think it just comes down to.

It comes down to every single individual and people say, I'm just me. What can I do to change the world? mean, you change yourself, the world changes. And it's about seeing. And that's so empowering, right? Because you can do something right now. You can start to change yourself. You can start to talk to yourself better. You can start to teach your body better. You can start to be more conscious of what you put into your mind. And then, you you'll start you'll other people will come into your life that reflect that. And all of a sudden, well, my world's changing. Seeing our own divine spark.

is partly what enables us to see it in others. That's the test case. That's the test case. And being able to really live that and to bring our dignity into the forefront. That dignity is an inherent gift that we have. And so if we're able to understand it in ourselves, we can start to understand it in others. And it's that dignity, you were mentioning earlier in the podcast that there's that part of us that wants to be right, then there's that part of us that ⁓

gives up all the power. And I think it's the divinity, or it's the dignity that creates that boundaries and say that says I have self-worth and I have to stand up for my and fight for myself. If nobody else is going to fight for myself, I have to have the dignity. Otherwise, I'm just going to go home and be bitter. That's right. And that's going to come out in other ways, in other passive aggressive ways. But my dignity also tells me that who I want to be in the world is somebody that honors the dignity of others. Yeah. And that isn't just out for me. Yeah. Right. That my identity is one that

is shaped by an understanding of our interconnectedness and that we, that I am because we are, right? As the Bantu phrase, Ubuntu, teach us, right? That these fates, these dignities, these sparks are bound up in one another and we need to live with that consciousness.

Aaron, it's been amazing talking to you. I wish we could talk longer, but maybe we'll do it again. It's been a treat, Martin. Thank you so much for having me on and loving what you're doing here. And best of luck getting out there and healing the world. Thank you. And same to you. All right, brother. Take care. Take care.Description text goes here

DescriMartin P Prihoda (00:01)

Welcome to the Odyssey and Alchemy, a space to explore the journey inward and the transformation that unfolds from it. I'm your host, Martin Prihoda, and my hope is that these conversations help light the path towards wholeness, connection, and a deeper sense of shared humanity as we navigate this fast-changing exponential age together. Here, you'll hear from inspiring voices in the physical, mental, and spiritual wellbeing space, people who are helping shape a more mindful and meaningful future.

If you enjoy what you hear, please like, subscribe and share. I'm so glad you're here. Let's dive in.

Martin P Prihoda (00:33)

Welcome to the Odyssey Alchemy podcast.

Martin P Prihoda (00:52)

All right, welcome back to the Odyssey and the Alchemy and get ready to ignite your soul. Joining me is radiant Vancouver, Yogini Clara Roberts-Oss, Vinyasa Flow Master. She's trained with Shiva Ray. She leads transformative classes and retreats all over the world. And ⁓ she's here to awaken your inner cosmic dancer. Clara, welcome. I try to keep my intros like creative.

Clara Roberts-Oss (01:16)

Thanks for having me.

it.

Martin P Prihoda (01:21)

I don't tell people that the intros before so everybody's been like, my gosh, that's a great intro. But it's awesome to have you on how are you?

Clara Roberts-Oss (01:32)

I'm well. How are you?

Martin P Prihoda (01:34)

I'm good. I'm good. It's been fun doing this podcast and both Tonya and I were like, hey, Claire is going to come on the show. I was very excited. ⁓ And just I know how busy you've been. And I mean, you're a full time mom. ⁓ Well, part time full time, I think full time, you know, full time spiritually and physically. ⁓ And how is your how is Carmen?

Clara Roberts-Oss (02:00)

Carmen's great.

She's five years old and has started kindergarten and is enthusiastic about letters, which is awesome. ⁓

Martin P Prihoda (02:06)

Yep.

That's great. And ⁓

Carmen and India Rose, my daughter, our daughter are the same age. So they're great playmates. how is it? Yeah, they love each other. And how has it been for you juggling like being a mom and just being, you know, one of Vancouver's most ⁓ respected yoga teachers and busy?

Clara Roberts-Oss (02:19)

Yeah, Carmen loves India.

Yeah, busy I think is the right word. mean, I'm a busy body, so I've always been busy. ⁓ And now, as you said, and I think this is the dilemma of all parents, is trying to juggle being present for your children, getting all the chores done, and making a living. And so it's a...

It's a constant juggle and I feel like every week is different so you have to be adaptive.

Martin P Prihoda (03:13)

Yeah, they force your presence, don't they, children? And yeah, yeah. it's just, there's just such fantastic teachers, you know, because that, like so many times, I'm just like, my gosh, it just brings me back to my parents and the things my parents did. I'm like, I don't want to repeat those things. And you're constantly being challenged.

Clara Roberts-Oss (03:18)

I love it.

Martin P Prihoda (03:40)

How do you bring in your yoga practice to parenthood? That's a really good question for us. Parents that I think that are yogis that are practicing yoga, how do you embody yoga in parenting?

Clara Roberts-Oss (03:57)

For me, the key of what I've been really...

focused on are two things. The first one is that I think that the most powerful way that we can parent is by modeling. So modeling behavior, modeling language, modeling how we navigate and regulate is what I would say. And so. ⁓

a large part of what my practice has always been about is curiosity. And that's something that's innately in all of us. And I find that children, specifically my daughter, but even when I worked with kids for a long time when I was younger, they innately have that curiosity. So together we can get curious. I would say we like put on our curious caps and try to figure out, you know, what's going on or how to navigate it. And I'll say the one thing that I have

struggled with with Carmen is ⁓

honoring her own, I can do it with students, but it's harder with your own kids, like honoring her own way of processing. So I'm gonna give you the example. I love riding my bike. And I remember when I learned how to ride a bike, like how freeing that was. And like my friends and I would go everywhere. And I just, so I had this enthusiasm to teach her how to ride a bike. And unfortunately there aren't a ton of kids in our neighborhood. So she hasn't seen a lot of kids on bikes and.

The three times I really tried to get her on her training wheels and do all that, it left her crying and me really frustrated because I'm like, is like, if you get this, it's gonna be like so good for you. You're gonna like love this, you know? And because of that kind of energy that I'm bringing, you know, she shuts down. She, like her mother and her father, we don't like being told what to do. So that's something that I'll say that I have been working on.

Martin P Prihoda (05:52)

Right.

Clara Roberts-Oss (05:58)

softening with her is like, so we agreed, we got rid of the bike and I said, Carmen, if and when you're ready to learn how to ride a bike, you let me know, we'll get a bike and we'll do it. And she was like, okay, because it just became this.

Yeah, just disappointing for everybody.

Martin P Prihoda (06:17)

Yeah, I totally get what you mean. Like this. There's this. There's this like this projection that we just say, this is the like, this is what worked for me. It's gonna be awesome. And then they're kind of like, ⁓ I don't know. You're like, what? So it's kind of Yeah, it's it's, it's like releasing that identity releasing the identity that they need to be like us, or they have

Clara Roberts-Oss (06:24)

It's gonna be awesome!

Well, yeah.

Yeah, or to

let her be that she is going to discover and want to do things in her own time, as we all do. And so that is something that I am just like, I feel like I'm just learning in the last year specifically, because I've been same with reading, I love to read. And so I was trying to, you know, share that enthusiasm with her and

really the best way to do it is just to model it. So I read a lot and she sees me on my bike and then she gets curious. But instead of me being like, you should do this, you know, just doing it. So that's why I was saying, coming back to like what I said earlier in terms of modeling and just, just quite, yeah, be, be without having to push.

Martin P Prihoda (07:29)

Right? Yeah. Yeah. And that's like, I've, we're in an interesting stage, because we've got a 15 year old and 11 and a six year old, right? So, like, you know, conceptually, and just the stuff, you're always shifting between different, ⁓ like, the different comprehension levels, right? So like, with Jai, you know, because he's doing social. So then we talk about like, you know, World War Two, whatever. And then like,

Clara Roberts-Oss (07:47)

ors.

Martin P Prihoda (07:54)

Teo's fully into his tennis, but he still kind of straddles that in between this. You know, being the middle, I think is an interesting place to be. And then India Rose is just kind of like, she's she's sort of she's very, she's very powerful with her voice, because she's got two older brothers that can overpower her physically. You know, like push her around or whatever, like they do they jostle. So she's just she's got this voice that just like, wow.

Clara Roberts-Oss (07:59)

Yes.

Martin P Prihoda (08:23)

And that's like her that's like her weapon. Yeah. ⁓

Clara Roberts-Oss (08:27)

And so how do you feel

like you navigate or how do you bring your own practice into parenting, especially three, like I can't even imagine three is, whew.

Martin P Prihoda (08:37)

Yeah,

I ⁓ so so like meditation meditation is such an important practice for me and ⁓ just creating just the ability to create space around the experience and not getting wrapped up in the experience. Like, for example, you know, like, a fifth when they start when they turn into teenagers, they start to challenge you in ways that a six year old doesn't challenge you like a six year old challenge you like in a tantrum, or like

Clara Roberts-Oss (08:43)

Mm-hmm. Same.

Martin P Prihoda (09:06)

you know, like a meltdown. And so you're kind of like, okay, this kid's having a meltdown. But as they get into teenagers, they start to challenge you ⁓ they start to challenge you no, you're actually wrong about this, dad. Like, you know, like, there's that, they start to challenge like some of your core beliefs, or, you know, some things like that. So ⁓ for me, it's kind of like really being able to be like, okay,

I'm hearing the words he's they're saying and like, can feel myself getting frustrated and I can feel the anger, but I'm just going to observe this and not react to it. So for me, the practice of yoga is, you know, just the creation of space around an experience so that it's not reactive, it's responsive at the right time.

So, so for me, for me, like parent, lot of parenting is just okay, it's like, it's like creating space around what's happening. Does that make sense? ⁓ Yeah. How's, how's, how's the business been? practice with Claire, like Tonya's always Tonya's always doing your classes. So I'm always taking, I'm always peeking in there.

Clara Roberts-Oss (10:03)

Yeah.

Yeah,

I launched.

Martin P Prihoda (10:21)

We hear your voice. We hear

your voice a lot at our house. That's why this feels that's why this feels so natural. I'm like, I already hear Clara so much at home. Yeah.

Clara Roberts-Oss (10:25)

Awesome.

Yeah,

well, we've known each other for like two decades at this point. ⁓ Yeah, Practice with Clara, I launched it. It's the virtual studio. I launched that in 2019, like August 2019, actually the same month that I found out I was pregnant with Carmen. ⁓ And it was the idea of it was to just to have a passive income while I was going to have a child because as independent.

Martin P Prihoda (10:35)

For sure.

Yeah.

Clara Roberts-Oss (11:00)

independent entrepreneurs, if you're not working, you're not making money, or in my line of work, it's very hard to have a passive income. ⁓ And so yeah, we launched it. I had that idea for like five years beforehand, but just didn't have the bandwidth to create it. And ⁓ it takes up a lot of time, is what I'm going to say. I actually don't get to teach as much yoga as I used to.

Martin P Prihoda (11:23)

Yeah.

Clara Roberts-Oss (11:27)

I used to teach, you know, an average of about 22 classes a week. And I teach like six yoga classes a week, both online and in person, just because there's so much admin, there's so much backend to a, to a business, to an online virtual business. So yeah, we were actually just having a chat today and I'll ask you the same question. And like, if you could, like in the matrix download, like a skill where you didn't have to put the hours in to get it, I'm going to ask you and then I'll tell you mine.

Martin P Prihoda (11:34)

Okay.

Yeah.

Clara Roberts-Oss (11:58)

what skill would that be, right? And what I saying today is I wish that I was a dev person. I wish I was a developer because how much that I have to deal with in terms of software, like, yeah, I'm a yoga teacher, but I deal a lot with software and tech because of it being like a virtual studio. And I wish that I've learned a lot. I've got to say I've learned a lot in the last five or six years doing this, but man, if I had that as a skill, throw that in.

Martin P Prihoda (12:18)

Yeah.

Clara Roberts-Oss (12:27)

Ready? What would be your skill? If you could like download a skill.

Martin P Prihoda (12:29)

Yeah, yeah. That Yeah, I guess everybody's like

vibe coding now, you know, like AI is, think AI could just build so much for you.

Clara Roberts-Oss (12:41)

I know, I mean, it's troubleshooting. Like I'm currently having a lot of issues with a Squarespace anyway. So if I was a dev person, I could do all this, but I'm on tech support with like two different websites trying to figure this out.

Martin P Prihoda (12:51)

Okay, right. I just I

just launched, I just launched a website on Squarespace. ⁓ For this for this new for this life stories, I found it pretty I'm I you must be doing a lot of back end monetization, which is probably where it's complicated. But you know,

Clara Roberts-Oss (13:01)

nice.

Mm-hmm.

Martin P Prihoda (13:12)

I wrote. ⁓ So I'm this I'm kind of the same, you know, I've got a good ⁓ technical knowledge with photography. But when it comes to the nitty gritty of the software, I complete like I just can't do it. Like, it's just it's not my thing. I'm too tactile, like to be out shooting. I like to be it's like you like you'd like to be out doing it. And so ⁓ like when I wrote I wrote my book last year, I used like somebody off a fiber to format at all.

Clara Roberts-Oss (13:38)

Mm-hmm.

Martin P Prihoda (13:39)

And I was just because I was trying to figure out the formatting myself and I was struggling with it. So I guess my skill would be just, you know, making enough money to like, to hire people to help me do the things I need to do like delegate. ⁓

Clara Roberts-Oss (13:42)

Yeah.

That's the

number one thing to do as an entrepreneur. I'll say that like that's the thing that I feel like I've learned by building this. I mean, I've been self-employed since 2003, but having this kind of business and I have a team and all that, like learning how to delegate was a really hard thing, because I used to be a one woman show who did absolutely everything. And you can't actually, you actually can't grow if you're doing everything. So that would be like the one piece of.

Martin P Prihoda (14:19)

So maybe it's good you're not a, maybe it's good

you're not a dev.

Clara Roberts-Oss (14:23)

Yeah, yeah, maybe. I need to hire another dev.

Martin P Prihoda (14:24)

I remember, I remember. Yeah,

I remember I was at the BAMF Film Festival and I was, this was like 25 years ago, but I was listening to, I went to a masterclass with Sterla Gunnarsson, who was a filmmaker. And this was the time when I was starting, you know, film and photography. And I was just like, I've got to know everything and I've got to be able to do everything. And ⁓ Sterla was as a director, you don't need to know.

Clara Roberts-Oss (14:37)

Mm-hmm.

Martin P Prihoda (14:49)

where to put the light, you don't need to know where to put the sound, you don't need to know this and this and this, what all you need to do is you need to communicate your vision to the people that will do all that stuff. Right, so you don't need to necessarily know it's good as a director if you know what lenses you want to use and what kind of lights you want to use, but you don't if you're working with somebody that's like a DP, you know, you you can explain to them, I want this kind of mood, just create it for me, as opposed to getting into it yourself.

Clara Roberts-Oss (15:01)

Yeah.

Martin P Prihoda (15:19)

too much.

Yeah, too bad we can't download skills like the matrix, hey.

Clara Roberts-Oss (15:26)

Yeah, I've been thinking about it a lot.

Martin P Prihoda (15:31)

gonna happen with

Clara Roberts-Oss (15:31)

And now

there's a whole generation of people who don't know what the matrix is. That was something that was really interesting in teacher training I taught recently. And someone, I was referring to it and someone was like, what's the matrix? And you're like, what?

Martin P Prihoda (15:36)

Yeah.

We have a

matrix. Yeah. Well, I mean, that film was like, that was a kind of a coming age film for our age. I think I'm a bit older. But it was such a transformative film.

Clara Roberts-Oss (15:46)

What?

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. And it deals with so many of the concepts that we work with in terms of in the world of spirituality.

Martin P Prihoda (15:59)

Yeah.

Right, right, my illusion. Yeah. You know what one thing I really appreciate about you, Clara, is not only your physical practice, but like you read a lot and I think you've got a really beautiful grasp on the philosophy of yoga. And I think a lot of yoga teachers, they really focus on the physical practice, but I personally, I love the philosophical part of yoga.

And I've just got a quick story. when I first went to, I started practicing yoga in Vancouver, but when I first went to India and I saw like an advertisement for a yoga class in Bombay and I was like, oh, I'm gonna go to like, finally I'm gonna go to like a real yoga class. You know, it's gonna be like crazy. It's gonna be like Iyengar style physical. So I go to this class in Bombay.

And I've got like my lily lemons, my shorts and everything. And I get there and it's just like 50 old people that had like hurt us and sorrys and there was chairs and you know, there's some mats with some blocks, but we did like a little bit of like a couple of downward dogs, you know, a little bit of flow. But then it was like an hour of lecture and an hour of talk.

Clara Roberts-Oss (17:04)

now.

Martin P Prihoda (17:24)

And I was and it was the first time I was introduced to to the the the sutras like Patanjali and that there's this whole, you know, ⁓ world around yoga that is not just the physical. ⁓

Clara Roberts-Oss (17:37)

I mean, that's what

it started like the first the first branch of yoga was Raja yoga, which is meditation, is Pantanjali's yoga and the Hatha yoga Pratyapika, which is one of the asanas in Korea as they came like, I think 600 years later, four to 600 years later. So yeah, I

Martin P Prihoda (17:54)

Yeah. What, what,

what is like, what is yoga? What does yoga mean to you? The practice of yoga? Why do we practice it? Why do you practice it? Teach it.

Clara Roberts-Oss (18:09)

And I think even more, a bigger question to ask is like, why is it still relevant? Because it is, and it was created so long ago and yet there's relevance today. And I find that that piece of it is probably one of the most fascinating aspects of it is that if you read the Bhagavad Gita or the sutras, right, you can pull, it's still relevant today, which blows my mind. And so,

Martin P Prihoda (18:14)

Mm-hmm. yeah.

totally. Yeah. If not even more,

these are seminal, like those two, the the sutras and the guitar like seminal ⁓ treatise, treatise is on human psychology. Like they're like,

Clara Roberts-Oss (18:50)

Yeah, and also

how-to guides on how to live your life, how to live your life well.

Martin P Prihoda (18:52)

how to guide.

Yeah. And understanding the mind.

Clara Roberts-Oss (18:56)

And how?

Yeah. So why do I practice yoga for all those reasons? I mean, I practice yoga. ⁓ I come I come from a philosophy family. Both my parents were philosophers. My dad taught Eastern thought my mother ⁓ more Western thought but ⁓ it's been in my life.

Martin P Prihoda (18:59)

So beautiful.

Hahaha

Clara Roberts-Oss (19:18)

since the beginning and how important it is to continue to ask the bigger questions of like, why are we here and what is the point? And that is not how I got into yoga at all. But that's what kept me in yoga versus moving on to something else.

Martin P Prihoda (19:41)

And isn't it interesting that, you know, as we move, as we move into this exponential age where everything's moving so quickly, and now we've got, you know, we're moving to this age where machines are, you know, are becoming sentient. And this whole idea of the singularity where artificial intelligence is, is beginning to match up if not equal human intelligence, that really, the way to stay relevant in the in the future is to

become more human to really tap into your humanity and your spirituality. You know, I don't know.

Clara Roberts-Oss (20:19)

Why do you

feel like that would, why do you feel like that's what's important?

Martin P Prihoda (20:23)

Because it'll be,

I think it'll be easy to start giving ourselves over to the machines and to you know.

Clara Roberts-Oss (20:33)

Hmm.

Martin P Prihoda (20:34)

I think as life becomes more complex and more distracting, more distracted, the importance of really excavating deeper into self and uncovering more of who we are becomes more more important for mental health.

What do you think?

Clara Roberts-Oss (21:00)

I think, I think.

coming back to the yoga sutras is that remembering that everything including AI is a tool and to use it as a tool. And so that was the key to meditation is to learn that your mind is a tool. It is not the one that is running the show. And so coming back to philosophy of like, well, if my mind's not running the show or if AI is not running the show, then who's running the show? And that's where we sit and figure out.

Martin P Prihoda (21:21)

Right.

So the mind as a servant, not the master.

Clara Roberts-Oss (21:38)

Yeah, I mean, that's what Pentangeli is suggesting. And I think that that's what we need to remember in terms of AI is that it's a tool.

Martin P Prihoda (21:40)

Yeah.

Clara Roberts-Oss (21:49)

and to use it as such.

Martin P Prihoda (21:52)

It's very, I think it's the most powerful tool we've ever created though. I don't, it's a different kind.

Clara Roberts-Oss (21:58)

Why? What makes it powerful?

Martin P Prihoda (22:02)

because I think it has it has the ability to ⁓

its cognition can move beyond ours, outside of us. I think it could potentially become uncontrollable if we're not careful.

it'll start to teach itself.

I agree with you, isn't it? No.

Clara Roberts-Oss (22:30)

Have you seen Plaribus? The

show?

Martin P Prihoda (22:35)

I haven't.

Clara Roberts-Oss (22:36)

Okay, your homework is to watch a little bit of it. I'll give you a little bit of context right now because it's what we're talking about. Where essentially the premise of the show is there are these people, ⁓ a group of astronomers or somebody who's like dealing with a telescope starts to get some sort of signal. And the signal they realize is a recipe. They make the recipe and essentially what it does is it is a virus.

that takes over the world that makes it so that we are one unit like we are of the hive mind. But there's 12 people who don't join the hive. One of them is this American. But the interesting piece about it and why I'm saying this is that essentially by being a hive mind, they have all the information that has ever been learned on the planet at their disposal. So.

Martin P Prihoda (23:13)

Right.

Okay.

Clara Roberts-Oss (23:33)

You are not just Martin, you are every single doctor in the world. are da, da, da, da. And I'm saying all this because coming back to your point about how you think that computers can surpass us and teach themselves.

They are essentially just gathering information that's already out there. They're just amalgamating it.

Martin P Prihoda (23:56)

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Clara Roberts-Oss (24:01)

and at least in the form of Plaribus, like what they're saying around that is that it's not trying to take over or it's just trying to optimize.

Martin P Prihoda (24:16)

Interesting.

Clara Roberts-Oss (24:16)

So this is just

another way to think, yeah. So I'm just planting that seed with you and let's chat about it afterwards.

Martin P Prihoda (24:20)

Sure, I'll check it out.

So do you do do think AI could ever become conscious? Or is it ever is it just going to be a vast library that

Clara Roberts-Oss (24:31)

I

mean, if we're gonna roll with the tantrics, which I do, they would say that everything is conscious. Everything in the universe vibrates with some sort of energy, so it already is conscious.

Martin P Prihoda (24:42)

Right. Interesting.

Clara Roberts-Oss (24:46)

But what is conscious? mean, like now we're getting into the bigger question. Is consciousness awareness or is consciousness a vibration? Is it something that's individual? Is it something that is collective?

Martin P Prihoda (24:51)

Well, like in the

Yeah, like in the in the Gita, there's, there's this, there's like the concept of like, Purusha and Prakriti, Prakriti, Prakriti, right? So Prakriti, like the unmanifest, giving rise to the manifest collapsing back to the unmanifest. And the matrix on that. Yeah, go ahead.

Clara Roberts-Oss (25:06)

Yeah, Procrity,

Well, yes, yeah, but

it, okay, yeah, but Purusha actually doesn't have consciousness. It's just an energy and it actually doesn't, it interacts but doesn't, ⁓ what's interesting about Purusha and Prakriti, Purusha being spirit or consciousness or awareness and Prakriti being matter, right? One is tangible and one is not tangible and they interact with each other, but it doesn't. ⁓

Martin P Prihoda (25:37)

Right.

Clara Roberts-Oss (25:43)

but Procrite never affects Purusha, like the material never affects the immaterial or the ethereal. And so coming back to AI, just to pull this back in, the kind of consciousness we're talking about, is it something that is able to discern or make a decision or is it just a vibration? Like what kind of consciousness are we talking about?

Martin P Prihoda (25:49)

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, it's almost it's almost like a field. It's like a field, right? Like, if you know, if you think about all the things right now that you're not thinking about, right, so all the teachers in elementary school that you haven't thought of in years, but you know, or whatever, like, I just like, or whatever you have for breakfast this morning, or like somebody you met, like, those, those things are, they're all in the unmanifest. And until your awareness is

Clara Roberts-Oss (26:07)

You know?

Yep.

I love that that's where you went,

Martin P Prihoda (26:36)

brought over those, then the thought collapses and becomes manifest. So is it the consciousness that's the unmanifest, that it's this continuous manifesting and unmanifesting, manifesting, unmanifesting? I don't know, that's...

Clara Roberts-Oss (26:52)

So do you believe

that it's only manifested when awareness is brought to it?

Martin P Prihoda (26:56)

Well, think that I think the conch I think consciousness is the the process of the manifestation and the unmanifestation. Like when we become conscious of something but but but the sub the substrate the substrate layer of the wave function is there before it collapses, right? So like the whole thing is kind of like the whole field moving is conscious.

Clara Roberts-Oss (27:23)

And can we define what consciousness is? feel like.

Martin P Prihoda (27:26)

That's

the hard question.

Clara Roberts-Oss (27:28)

Well, that's the question.

Martin P Prihoda (27:30)

That is the question.

It's the hardest question. ⁓

Clara Roberts-Oss (27:34)

But is it something that is self-aware? if we talk about parusha, it's not self-aware, it just is. So it always is, so consciousness is always there. So are you talking about consciousness like your own individual consciousness becoming aware of what I had for breakfast and then it manifesting? Or you know what I mean?

Martin P Prihoda (27:39)

Right.

Yeah.

or maybe consciousness is just the process, not the actual thing. I don't know. It's it's I think about this a lot. Like, you know, where is that thought before you think it? It's there because you've thought it before, but it disappears into the unmanifest. I don't know. Yeah.

Clara Roberts-Oss (28:19)

Okay, so it feels like what you think of it is in terms of individual consciousness or individual awareness. Like it's you who is thinking the thought and then it manifests.

Martin P Prihoda (28:30)

Correct. Well, it like me being like, me being like the jiva man, you know, like personalized, that that's, that's, you know, that's like the atman, the that personalized divinity consciousness witnessing self. The witnessing self like the awareness. What's that? ⁓

Clara Roberts-Oss (28:54)

but not big C consciousness, not

big C, not like Brahman if we're going to talk in this, in the context of what you're using.

Martin P Prihoda (29:01)

Yeah, well,

mean, Brahma, yeah, Brahman being like the big, like the big universal consciousness.

Clara Roberts-Oss (29:09)

Mm-hmm.

Martin P Prihoda (29:10)

out there. And then the internalized consciousness and the veil that exists between them being the Maya, the illusion, the ego mind that yoga seeks to dissolve to create the union between the two.

Clara Roberts-Oss (29:12)

Mm-hmm.

Martin P Prihoda (29:28)

I think.

That's what to me, yoga, the unification, when they talk about yoga and yoga being the union, the yoke, it's those two things that are being yoked, is the Atman with the Brahman, right? The greater consciousness with the individualized self-consciousness.

So I think we have the unmanifest within us. ⁓ But then the awareness of our five senses draws awareness to a memory or a thought and that thought collapses, like it's like wave and then collapse into ⁓ like a thought is like a particle function. So it's like constantly manifesting like waves. And I think that's what happens when we die. It's like ⁓ we

Clara Roberts-Oss (30:08)

Mm.

Martin P Prihoda (30:17)

you know, we go back into the unmanifest, but you know, there's, there's karma that we've collected in this life. And it's like, it's like kind of like an oil slick, you know, like, you know, like that, that kind of oil, that oily slick. like when you're individualized, let's say you're a water droplet, you go back into the great river, you leave a little bit of that stain, like the stain, but you leave a little bit of that karma.

and which when the re-manifestation happens in the next life, a little bit of is brought into the next manifestation of life.

Clara Roberts-Oss (30:54)

Okay, so

you believe in reincarnation.

Martin P Prihoda (30:58)

Well, it's not a reincarnation of self necessarily, but it's a reincarnation of, you know, karmic traces that have been left behind throughout lifetimes.

Clara Roberts-Oss (31:11)

but they're not individualized.

Martin P Prihoda (31:14)

They're like imprints. They're like latencies that are left behind. They're necessarily personalized, I don't think. I mean, they're collected via your person as you live, but they go back into the river. They go back into the river, and they're part of that fabric.

that is just rematerialized, it gets brought back up again with the next manifestation. Do you understand what I mean? Am I making any sense?

Clara Roberts-Oss (31:51)

Yep. Yeah,

yeah. I mean, more so than anything is I'm just learning about you in terms of what you think about these concepts. So that's why I'm asking questions.

Martin P Prihoda (31:59)

Yeah, that's what I think.

I think, and that's what when we think of past lives, it's just this collection of karmic, ⁓ it's like this collection of samskaras that we kind of leave behind as our bodies and our minds die, then what's left kind of melds back into the greater matrix, but it leaves behind the imprints of that life's consciousness.

Clara Roberts-Oss (32:29)

Hmm.

Martin P Prihoda (32:31)

into the the into the sort of the river into the greater field and then that's remanifest. I think it's like it's like binary it's like ones and zeros were just like it's like that's all life is is just a constant manifestation on manifestation manifestation on manifestation. And I think consciousness is that that line that kind of joins everything as it manifests and on manifests.

Clara Roberts-Oss (32:57)

and we're defining that consciousness as what again?

Martin P Prihoda (33:00)

Well.

I mean...

I guess for me, the consciousness would be the witnessing self.

awareness.

Clara Roberts-Oss (33:17)

and who is observing the observer.

Martin P Prihoda (33:21)

That is that's like that's like the hall of mirrors, right?

Clara Roberts-Oss (33:25)

AM.

Martin P Prihoda (33:27)

the observer observing the mirror, the observer observing the observer and so on and so forth, yeah.

Yeah. Who is observing the observer? What do you think?

Clara Roberts-Oss (33:37)

What do I think? I think that...

what happens when we I don't know if you're feeling this, like when we when I get into these kinds of conversations, I'm almost like in this, I feel like I'm swimming in an ocean. So I can feel like so I have to retether myself. That's that's what I'm doing. So it's like, what do I think is like, what do I think is big sea consciousness? I don't think it's individual. I don't think it observes kind of coming back to perusia in the context of like

Martin P Prihoda (33:53)

Mm-hmm.

Clara Roberts-Oss (34:11)

yoga philosophy is that it's not an individual consciousness. It's not observing, just is. And it's essentially like what the physicists, know, the physicists have proven, right, is that everything in the universe vibrates, but it's not individual vibration, and it doesn't do anything. It's just vibrating. And that vibration is what I would see is big sea consciousness versus little sea consciousness, little sea consciousness being who I think I am or the observer here.

Big C consciousness to me is just the vibration of things that are, and there's no personal and it doesn't do anything, it's just vibrating. And that vibration just is in all things. And why we seek to connect to that vibration is that it gives us our life purpose and meaning, and it makes it feel like there is a reason that all of this is happening. And humans, why I think yoga is still significant today is that humans need purpose. It gives us fulfillment.

Martin P Prihoda (35:06)

Yes.

Clara Roberts-Oss (35:09)

Right? And it makes it so that it doesn't feel like this is for nothing.

Martin P Prihoda (35:15)

Hmm.

Clara Roberts-Oss (35:16)

And so, but I don't think it's observing and I don't think it does anything and I don't think it judges and I don't think it's just a vibration and that in our own cells when we feel that vibration we feel connected and we feel whole because for some reason at some point in time in all of our lives we like fell out of our own Eden, you know what I mean? We fell out of a place and we are constantly seeking to remember that wholeness.

Martin P Prihoda (35:45)

Yeah, that's so true, Clara. Yeah. I mean, to me, it's really about the path back to wholeness. Right. But with now with intellect, right, because, you know, we're we're both parents. So you know, when you see that newborn, you know, Carmen or, or, or my kids, it's like when you're holding that newborn, and you watch how they observe the world, it's, it's so completely like pure and without

Clara Roberts-Oss (35:47)

So that's.

Yeah.

Martin P Prihoda (36:13)

judgment and without ability to segment things. Like they're not judging or segmenting. They're just looking at this wholeness of color and sound and it's just nothing has a name yet. Nothing has been separated from anything else. And then as we grow, that needs to happen because you need to know the difference between a car.

and a dog and so things get separated and then things get judged and this is good and this is bad. And then, you know, through various well-meaning people, whether it be parents or, you know, school or peers or church or peer pressure or religion, like the self starts to fragment, right, into all these different fragmentations. And so really the purpose becomes to bring all of that.

all of that fragmentation back to a coherent wholeness, I think, is the purpose and the path to self-actualization and healing. It's so healing, right? When you see people that are very conflicted, there's usually ⁓ like a schism, right? Something split.

Clara Roberts-Oss (37:17)

Mm-hmm.

Martin P Prihoda (37:25)

And so their signal isn't coherent.

That's that's what I think if anybody asks me what I think for the purpose of life is just the just to the path like just becoming whole again, and self actualization and knowing as much about ourselves and with as we can and then approaching that with love and empathy and compassion. And then because we see that in ourselves, we know it's capable for other people, right? And that is like the birth of compassion, first for the self. And then for others.

And that's the beauty of what you do is you teach that. know, even if it's like, I mean, it's a physical practice, but I think the sages understood that it's difficult to understand the mind through the mind so you can understand the mind through the body from the outside in and then.

Clara Roberts-Oss (38:19)

Well,

and also more so than that is that it's tangible. Like I think that why, like asana practice being one of the many facets of yoga is really, powerful and is really caught on because A, ⁓ we are too, I feel like cerebral ⁓ as a culture.

Martin P Prihoda (38:22)

Mm-hmm.

Clara Roberts-Oss (38:42)

So actually getting back into our bodies is very tangible. can feel, I can move my fingers and feel them. And that brings me into the here instead of me thinking about what I need to do later or how do I feel about what happened yesterday and all that. And so through the tangible body we can.

⁓ come back to ourselves because so much of the world pulls us out of ourselves, including our kids and all the things. It's constantly, I feel like it's like out, out, out. So we gotta go in, in, in. And it's the way that I like to think about it. specifically I find for my own meditation practice, specifically it's like.

I'm creating a stronger anchor inside of myself so that as things are pulling me out, I'm still firmly planted in my center, you know? And when we move from that place, we're literally, I've been writing a lot about this lately, like we're, to me the practice about integration and integration, the same key, the same like root of integrity is integration. And we need more integrity, which is in.

Martin P Prihoda (39:31)

Yeah, that's beautiful.

Clara Roberts-Oss (39:52)

integrity and so yeah and so but we it it's

Martin P Prihoda (39:58)

Well, integrity

is like a coherent strength. It's a ⁓ strength that functions for the entire structure to create that integrity. that's profound to use the body as a tool like that. I really, you know, we get so

Clara Roberts-Oss (40:01)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, well, here's the jam. The jam is

that I remember when I first read the Yoga Sutras, I was like, this is not for me. Like when I did my 200 hour teacher training just to learn more about yoga, I read the Yoga Sutras and I was like, this is not my book. Like if this is what yoga is based off of, these are not my people. I don't believe in sitting and trying to repress and not have these negative feelings. like it has a very strong judgment in terms of how the path to getting to...

quote unquote, enlightenment or nirvana. And I was like, this is not for me. don't agree with this because I've always found joy in my body. I feel very privileged to be able to say that, but like dancing and moving has been something that's been in my life since I was very, very young. And that's how I came to yoga. So then to find out that we're trying to transcend the body and that the body's impure and all this, was like, I don't agree with this. ⁓

But then another school of thought, Hatha Yoga Partipika, right? And tantrikas came and they were like, no, through the body we connect to the divine because everything is divine and the most tangible part of you is your physical body because you can touch and feel it where a lot of what's happening in the mind, right, is ethereal. It's not tangible. And both ways are great. So let me start by saying both ways are great. Everybody is going towards nirvana enlightenment.

The path though I find of trying to repress, suppress, or transcend our physical body is not the one that works for me. The one that works for me is the physical body being the pathway, the gateway, the temple, as I like to think of it, of our souls. So we take care of our temple and we sweep our temple and we clean our temple. And then that way, right, the light that is in the center of our temple, our altar, if you want to say it, is able to burn brightly.

Martin P Prihoda (42:09)

I love that.

Clara Roberts-Oss (42:09)

And I think

that that's what works, why it works really well here in North America is because people are too cerebral.

Martin P Prihoda (42:18)

Yeah. Yeah. That's that's fascinating. I've that's the one thing I've sort of got out of those those ⁓ those books is that the mind that the body is actually the outermost extension of of mind. That it's like it's, you know, it's mind body spirit is very Judeo Christian, you know, sort of way of looking at it. But, you know, if you if you take a thought and an emotion, it ripples out, you feel it somewhere in the body.

And that's, you know, that's the amazing thing about a yoga, like when I started practicing yoga, and you know, I'd always been physical all my life, but now here I am, you know, you're holding warrior two, whatever, and they're making you hold it long, and it's burning. And then all of a sudden, it's like, why am feeling angry? Why am I feeling? And then you really start to, you really start to understand that the the discomfort that you're feeling in the body is really just discomfort in the mind.

And so what happens if you just put your awareness and attention to that discomfort in your hips? All your life you've been wanting to run away from that or you've been wanting to move, okay, I a shift, I'm gonna come from a shift. What happens if you don't? What happens if you just sit and put your mind there and just observe it? That or that strain you're feeling in your quads or that stretch, what if you just breathe through it?

Clara Roberts-Oss (43:27)

Mm-hmm.

Martin P Prihoda (43:39)

and just watch it and then and then all of sudden it's what, well the sensation undulates and it changes and then it's not so uncomfortable anymore. Now it's uncomfortable, it's always moving, everything's shifting. It's crazy and that the mind is like that. So by studying the body, like we can learn so much about the mind.

Clara Roberts-Oss (43:58)

Well, we're using it as a tool. Again, we're coming back to these tools. You're using the asanas as a tool to observe and learn about yourself, right? And specifically what I like to tell people when we do like these really weird shapes in our bodies, know, like quote unquote, like pretzelize our bodies, we're doing it to observe when I'm uncomfortable, what do I do? What's my natural inclination? Do I go in harder? Do I want to get out? Do I scream? Do I fidget? Like, what do I do?

Martin P Prihoda (44:01)

Exactly.

Clara Roberts-Oss (44:26)

And then if you do nothing, and when you're saying Martin, right, if you hold it and do absolutely nothing, what happens? Right? I remember one of my friends saying like, ⁓ when I was in labor, I loved labor. I loved it. I felt like I was in a yoga practice. I felt like I journeyed into caves and I went into the astral plane. I I moved around so much and... ⁓

Martin P Prihoda (44:31)

Yeah. Yeah.

You build.

Clara Roberts-Oss (44:55)

yeah, danced and, you know, made sounds and did all these things. And I was talking to my doula about it. I was like, yeah, I felt like I was like born. I was born to do that. I hated pregnancy, but I loved labor ⁓ because you have you're forced to be present. It was like such an amazing. was a practice. was a it was a it was a long yoga practice. And she was like, what we do on the mat, right, is essentially like boot camp for you to be able to deal with stress when it comes up. And that's all it is. Right. That's like the awesome practice. How do I deal with stress? How do I deal with discomfort?

And you can do that sitting on the meditation cushion. It's the same idea, right? Like, especially if you've done Insight meditation or what have you, right? You're sitting for eight or nine hours a day. Same idea, sit and don't move. Now what happens, right? And then you learn how to handle and navigate, navigate stresses.

Martin P Prihoda (45:43)

I mean, you know, I was present for all three of our children and just Tonya, ⁓ she gave birth without any medication. It was all at home and just being present for that, just that raw, ⁓ just the power of the feminine.

Clara Roberts-Oss (46:03)

Mm-hmm.

Martin P Prihoda (46:07)

that feminine power. It's different than a masculine power. It's just like this, when those contractions would come and I could just, wow, it was just so intense, but she was just like, oming through it.

That's I don't know. I don't know. I don't know many guys like real to handle that. Maybe. But there's you never know. You never know. But very like mad respect. It's an honoring of that. And being present for that. And breathing through that and that would be the ultimate because the sensations are so intense. And it's such an intense thing.

Clara Roberts-Oss (46:26)

Well, you, you, yeah, you never, you never know.

Martin P Prihoda (46:51)

So we're like, where does like, you know, it's just crazy to think where the mind goes. I just observed that. But yeah, just just talking about the body as a tool. And this idea of of then, as we observe the sensation and don't move, then there's this idea of tapas, right? There's this like internal fire that's now burning. ⁓

and developing that tapas, that fire, right? Through holding these poses.

Clara Roberts-Oss (47:23)

Mm-hmm.

Martin P Prihoda (47:27)

It's super inspiring. I love it.

Clara Roberts-Oss (47:31)

Me too.

Martin P Prihoda (47:31)

You talk a lot about Tapas, I think.

Clara Roberts-Oss (47:35)

Yeah, I think of it more like a discipline, but it is also a fire. And and the key with all of this is yeah, cultivating discipline. Discipline in that I can stay with what is because all we know that's going to happen, right? The inevitable is change. So this too shall pass. So can I dance through whatever it is that's arising, whether it's a physical or mental sensation, because it will come.

Martin P Prihoda (47:38)

Yeah.

Right.

Clara Roberts-Oss (48:02)

Like you said, it's gonna manifest and then it's gonna go back into the ocean.

Martin P Prihoda (48:05)

It does, and it changes flavor and

sensation. And then to be able to use that kind of knowledge and wisdom for our relationships that we have, right? Because in a lot of ways, relationships are like yoga poses. They get uncomfortable, they like, you wanna move, you wanna run away. You're challenged. It's just the mind being challenged in a different way.

but then you create that space and it's that space that allows you to observe and this understanding that you are not the sensation, you're the observer of that sensation. So what happens if I just observe it?

Clara Roberts-Oss (48:46)

And more so than that, I think the most liberating aspect of that is by observing you learn.

more about yourself and the situation and then you can make a more educated choice on what you want to do about it. I'm thinking specifically, I'm thinking specifically in terms of when you're caught in a moment of conflict, whether it's with a person actually usually be with a person. ⁓ Now I can, I can either do what I used to do or I can sit back and observe, okay, wow, I'm really triggered right now. Can I just sit back and

Usually what I do is like drop into the sensation. What am I, what is the sensation trying to tell me? What do I need to do around this? And then step back and also observe what's happening outside. I always ask the question, is this yours? Is this mine or is this ours? So if I am I triggered because this is something that has, it is in my book of stories. Is this something that we're interacting together or is this something that you're projecting onto me?

Martin P Prihoda (49:28)

Move.

Clara Roberts-Oss (49:51)

And then I feel like when you stop and observe, you can figure that out. Is this mine, yours or ours? And then based on that, I can make the decision of how I want to respond to it, which I found I will say is been one of the most liberating things in my life because I was, we never met when I was 20, Martin, but we met a little bit after that. I was a firecracker in terms of how I reacted to things. And so I wasn't driving the bus. Yeah, girl. I was like,

Martin P Prihoda (49:59)

And where do

Yeah, that's the New York in you, baby.

Clara Roberts-Oss (50:21)

Yeah, yeah. So yeah, I think that learning how to be able to respond instead of react is, think, regardless of whether or not you're seeking enlightenment or nirvana, I think the side effect of just being a better human is priceless.

Martin P Prihoda (50:40)

Yeah, I think

that's Yeah, that's what motivates me is just how can I be a better human and just ⁓ send out and just kind of like you using our our powers to just send out the signal you know the signal of

Clara Roberts-Oss (50:46)

same.

Martin P Prihoda (50:56)

and and coherence and kindness and compassion and understanding. Because I just feel that this world is, so, we're becoming so, and this is another thing with, you know, AI and the algorithm, it's just, becoming very identified. We're becoming very identified. I feel like the world is becoming more, like, we're kind of like,

devolving into tribalism in a lot of ways. Like, I don't remember people being this angry about politics ever. Like, I don't even discuss politics with people. People are so identified with where they are on the political spectrum and they're very, ⁓ you know, everybody feels that they're correct on that particular part of the spectrum, the political spectrum. And it's just the, I think the algorithms that are social media, they...

they can find out what where you stand and they just feed you that stuff. And I think that divides us. So I think we just need to be this is another reason why yoga and, you know, spirituality and itself investigation is that unless you do that, you are going to be forever controlled by these things. By this need to be identified with small s self. I'm a democrat, I'm a Republican, I'm a conservative, I'm a liberal, I'm

I'm a Trump supporter. I'm an antifa. Like these are all just identifications. And unless we go deeper into self and we understand that we are so much beyond any of these identifications that there is something in all of us that we share, like the Atman, the witnessing self, then I think we're going to be in a lot of trouble.

Because we're not gonna, because we're so rooted in this identity and the identity has to defend itself that we stop listening to each other. And then we live in echo chambers. That's kind of my fear is that we're gonna just stop listening to each other.

Clara Roberts-Oss (53:01)

I don't think people have been listening very much to begin with, but we just know more because we are connected to more people, in my personal opinion. As being an American, people have been divided in my country since the beginning. ⁓ But you didn't know about it as much because we didn't have social media. So I think it's just amplifying what's already there.

Martin P Prihoda (53:11)

Yeah.

Yeah, for sure.

Right.

Yeah.

Clara Roberts-Oss (53:30)

which

I'm not saying is a good thing. I'm just like, I don't think this is new at all. No. But what we can do, like you're saying is just open our ears and put our curious caps on as I like to tell Carmen. Open our ears more, listen more and get curious. There's a beautiful, someone said like one of the most radical things you can do these days is make more friends.

Martin P Prihoda (53:33)

No.

It isn't. Yeah.

Yeah.

it

Clara Roberts-Oss (53:57)

and have friends that don't have the same ⁓ values as you do.

and how important that is to have those people in our lives and to be able to listen with open ears and hearts and try to understand where they're coming from. You were about to say that I think, yeah.

Martin P Prihoda (54:13)

Yeah. And try and yeah,

and try to connect from a from a level from a ⁓ as off as authentic a level in yourself that you can like come from that place. Come from the place that transcends the the minutiae like the mundane that people get caught up in like I'm like, I have it I have a hard time having discussions now with things that are just

Monday, it's fine to talk about the weather. But like, you know, I don't want to talk about I don't necessarily want to talk about politics. I know it's important. And we have to be politically, you know, we have to be politically involved in some ways, because we have to vote, we have a democracy. And that's important. But you know, what are what are the deeper truths that connect us? That's what I'm interested in. I think that's why I'm starting this podcast. I want to talk about this stuff.

That's why it's not it's never going to be a political. It's never going to be a political podcast, you know, like this is not this is going to be like, health and mental health, spiritual health, physical health, that's what I'm interested in. So I want to have people on that are in that respect in those respective fields, people that do, you know, psychedelic therapy, I think is a huge burgeoning field that is just getting more and more attention. And I love it.

Clara Roberts-Oss (55:13)

It's important too.

Martin P Prihoda (55:44)

You know, I love that because the ability for those medicines and that technology to, ⁓ you know, shift the default mode, Ego disillusion, disidentification. Identification to me is the issue. Identification. The Buddha said it too, right? To identify as is to suffer as.

Of course, we're all I mean, you're gonna be I'm identified as a dad, for sure you're identified as a mom, but just to be aware of that identity.

Clara Roberts-Oss (56:21)

Well, to wear it like a suit and you can take it off and be more interested in what's underneath the suit instead of what you're wearing.

Martin P Prihoda (56:23)

Yes.

Yeah. And not give a shit if somebody

says your suit is ugly or like your suit sucks or like why are you wearing that suit? It's like it's just a suit, which is hard, right? And and that's the thing too with the body is that we're so caught up in society with the physical appearance of the body, the way the body is meant to look, that we forget that this is like a great tool that we have for understanding ourselves. We're so caught up in the physical of it, you know.

Clara Roberts-Oss (56:36)

Yeah.

Martin P Prihoda (56:54)

I mean, all fashion advertising, I was an advertising photographer, right? Like, it's just all about the body and how the body looks. But the body is the tool. As a hanger, or the sex symbol or something that that we judge ourselves by, you know, not that this is like a tool that we have.

Clara Roberts-Oss (57:03)

or more about the body as a hanger for the clothes that they're trying to sell.

Martin P Prihoda (57:15)

sense tool. ⁓

Clara Roberts-Oss (57:16)

One thing

that I will say that has ⁓ really progressed in the yoga world that I'm like so happy about is, I was just teaching a training a couple weeks ago, we were talking about this, because it was a hands-on training, ⁓ is like 20 years ago when I started teaching ⁓ yoga, we really were trying to get everybody to look a certain way in each pose.

Martin P Prihoda (57:40)

Mmm.

Clara Roberts-Oss (57:40)

Warrior

two, you need to have a 90 degree angle on your front leg, da da da da, you know, like, and so we all needed, all of our verbal cues were for people to get exactly that, where instead, nowadays, we're asking the question, what's the point of the pose? And then how can we make it accessible in the body that's in front of us? And so your warrior two and the person beside you might have a different one and.

Martin P Prihoda (58:03)

Hmm.

Clara Roberts-Oss (58:07)

I find that very, very liberating because it gets people to get more curious about why they're doing what it is that we're doing instead of being like, okay, my arms are supposed to be here and my leg's supposed to be here. It's more like, what am I feeling? Like I asked my class yesterday, we were in warrior two, and I was like, what's the point of this pose, everybody? And everyone looks at me. And I'm like, why do we do it? And I was like, okay, the idea is to open up your inner thighs and your front leg. If you don't feel that, here are some ways to make it.

or if you feel it too much, do these things. And that is very, very liberating in that it's going to welcome more beings into the room that wouldn't have done it before. I was with Bernie Clark last year and he was saying how ⁓ attracts like as we know. ⁓ And so a particular body type is gonna show up to a particular kind of yoga because their body's naturally inclined to that. Where now, what's really cool is that we're shifting that

paradigm where we're shifting that conversation so that all bodies can be more welcome in the room. And I think that that is like an awesome thing because we are in so many ways identifying and we're over identifying, but we're also, I'll say, at least in the yoga community, we're like welcoming more beings into the room that wouldn't necessarily think of themselves as yogis. And that's fricking dope.

Martin P Prihoda (59:08)

Yeah, that's amazing.

Yeah,

that is dope. It's funny because like, I mean, you must have heard this so many times, you know, you ask somebody if they've ever done yoga, and they're like, Yeah, I'm not very good at yoga. And as if it was, you know, hey, I'm not flexible enough to do you. What's this thing? It's like ⁓ saying that you're not flexible enough to do yoga is like saying you don't you can eat at that restaurant because you're too hungry or something like that. I don't know. There was this analogy that somebody created. ⁓ But

Clara Roberts-Oss (59:41)

I'm not flexible enough to do yoga. That's the one. I can't do yoga. I'm not flexible.

Yeah.

Martin P Prihoda (59:59)

Yeah, as if there was something to as if there is as if yoga was this thing that had to be achieved. Right? As you know, we're so achievement based, you know, I'm not very good at yoga.

Martin P Prihoda (1:00:14)

you're still at your like, it's like your approach to get like as a competition, you know, that you need to you to get somewhere. But really, it's just the process of being ⁓ in that space with yourself that you have to understand about that.

Clara Roberts-Oss (1:00:27)

Yes, and then.

The key around that, ⁓ what I was going to say is that instead of trying to achieve something, exploring why it is that we do what we do. And so what I was telling some people, ⁓ in malasana yogic squat, for some people, they'll never be able to put their heels on the ground just because structurally it's not going to work. Their Achilles are too short or, you know, like, and so letting go of what we think is achieving the pose.

and shifting the goal and instead to just being curious to what is today. What can my body do today? How does it make me feel when I do this body shape today? And that's getting present.

Martin P Prihoda (1:01:15)

Yeah, and like, do you think too, there's this there's this value to become to learning to be comfortable and discomfort, right? And I think yoga is very much that right? Because, you know, leaning forward in the present moment or like, craving aversion, you know, I want more of the pleasurable and I want less of the

you know, the unpleasurable, want less of that, I want more of this. So we're constantly swinging between those two poles, right, which is like the second noble truth. ⁓ So yoga really teaches us to just be present in the discomfort. And also present in the pleasurable, which is like, like after really vigorous practice here in Shavasana, it's very pleasurable, right? But can you keep your mind, can you keep...

your mind on your breath. Can you still stay present even when things are just relaxed and comfortable and super pleasurable? Like you're just lying there just like in bliss. That's like the, know, it's your ear between those two poles. And so, and two, like just when you're going through life, when you're shopping and when things are annoying and when like kids are being annoying, it's like, can you be present in this and just like breathe into it and just observe yourself in this moment. So everything becomes like yoga.

Like it's like everything like going shopping, going to the grocery store, going to Costco and it's really busy, it becomes like an asana practice. And you just observe like, I'm observing these people, I'm observing myself. So I think it's really just, it's a continual practice of remembering oneself. Like you're always remembering, like remember your breath, remember the body, remember the sensations, remember the present moment. You know what I mean?

Clara Roberts-Oss (1:02:57)

Mm-hmm.

Martin P Prihoda (1:02:58)

in that, know, like when you're in meditation, it's in the places your mind goes like five minutes, you're gone somewhere down the thought train. And then you're like, Whoa, let's bring that back to center. Bring that back to center. So it's like you're constantly like, like, corralling this monkey, this like this puppy that's just like, come back, come back. I don't know. It's fascinating. Understanding the mind. Fear, anxiety.

Clara Roberts-Oss (1:03:22)

One of my meditation

teachers likes to talk about how your mind, think of it like a four year old child that you're just constantly holding their hand and bringing them back to this other thing that we're focusing on. And when we think of it that way, then there's a little bit more like love towards it instead of like, come here, you know, it's like, all right, yeah, this is cool. I know what you're looking at. It's pretty cool, but let's go back over here.

Martin P Prihoda (1:03:32)

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And they just releasing the releasing the need for it to be a certain way, you know, like you've got a four year old and you've taken a four year old to the restaurant, they're going to move around, they're going to like, toddle, they're gonna go wherever they can. Like, either don't bring your four year old to the restaurant or be okay with the fact that they are going to move and squirm and it's going to be like, and as soon as you accept that, I think life becomes like things just becomes much easier.

Clara Roberts-Oss (1:03:53)

Mm-hmm. Expectations.

Martin P Prihoda (1:04:18)

You know, like you get annoyed, like, like, you're on a, you know, you're having you want to have a nice dinner with your partner, and you brought your kid and your focus is having a nice dinner on with your partner. But the that the child wants to run away, but you're so attached to having a nice time with the partner and connecting that it's an annoyance to you, right. But if you just, you know, I brought my child and this is what it is. And this is what's going to be the focus, then it becomes so much more easy to deal with it, because there's no expectation around how it should be. I don't know.

⁓ it's been awesome talking to Clara. I want to talk more, but I think you've got to get going. And it's, it's probably time for me to go to, I got it. It's going to be pick up, pick up time soon. It was so awesome to talk to you. I feel like I feel like we should do more of these. It's good fun. Yeah, I'll do it.

Clara Roberts-Oss (1:05:03)

same.

Yeah, I feel like we just started to it. I feel like we were just,

but yeah, I'll come back. Let's do it again.

Martin P Prihoda (1:05:13)

Yeah, we're just we're just starting to touch on it. Maybe what I'll do is I'll

just do like an edit, you know, edit some of the stuff and keep like our our little gems in there. And we'll come back for more. But it's so awesome. So lovely. And, ⁓ you know, and such a nice little chat. So let's stay in touch. Yeah, I appreciate you too, Claire. And you're doing great work. And we love I love when you come on the screen and you're just doing your thing and tones into it. And I do a couple of classes.

Clara Roberts-Oss (1:05:26)

Yeah, thank you.

I appreciate you. Yes.

you

Martin P Prihoda (1:05:43)

That's why you're always with us. You're always with us. You don't know this, but you're always with us. All right. All right. Give your little one a hug for us. Okay, take care. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Bye bye.

Clara Roberts-Oss (1:05:46)

I love that idea. I love that idea. Thank you, Martin. I will, same. We'll see you soon, okay?

Bye.

Martin P Prihoda (00:01)

Welcome to the Odyssey and Alchemy, a space to explore the journey inward and the transformation that unfolds from it. I'm your host, Martin Perhota, and my hope is that these conversations help light the path towards wholeness, connection, and a deeper sense of shared humanity as we navigate this fast-changing exponential age together. Here, you'll hear from inspiring voices in the physical, mental, and spiritual wellbeing space, people who are helping shape a more mindful and meaningful future.

If you enjoy what you hear, please like, subscribe and share. I'm so glad you're here. Let's dive in.

Martin P Prihoda (00:33)

Welcome to the Odyssey Alchemy podcast.

Martin P Prihoda (00:52)

All right, everybody, welcome back to the Odyssey and the Alchemy, the place where epic journeys meet profound inner transformation in the realms of psychology and spirituality and wellness. Today, we're thrilled to welcome Jason Jacobson,

behind My Yoga Online, the world's most visited yoga video platform, which he built and sold to Gaia. He's an author of Strategic Instinct and creator of Hublot AI. Jason bridges ancient wellness wisdom

with cutting edge innovation. Join us now as he shares insights on self care, instinct driven leadership and thriving in a fast changing world. Jason Jacobson, so happy to have you on the show. How are you?

Jason Jacobson (01:34)

Wow,

I wish I had written that. I've never heard myself described as that. So that's pretty impressive. I might have to bring you with me on stage wherever I go and introduce me.

Martin P Prihoda (01:37)

You

Well, you're an impressive guy. just for our listeners' context, think we've known each other, what, like 30 years? No, 25 years. No, 30 years. Hey, since like, since the 90s. When did we first meet? In the 90s, when you were sleeping on somebody's couch.

Jason Jacobson (01:59)

Yeah, ⁓

When I sleep on someone's couch when we met, I remember you working as a dishwasher at the Doll & Penny. Yeah. Yeah. And that was, was... Yeah.

Martin P Prihoda (02:05)

When I met you, I think.

I was a dishwasher at Dom Penny's. right. I was living

on Butte in my mid-20s. And that was my day job. And then my night job at that point, ⁓ I was transferring, was a telecine assistant. So was syncing sound for dailies for the movies. Syncing back, yeah, just syncing sound to the clapper on the night shift. So that was crazy. Those are crazy times.

Jason Jacobson (02:30)

Huh.

Yeah, we lived across

the street from each other. And I think we we met via a friend of ours who has completely disappeared from the planet. So we don't know where he is right now, if he exists or not. Yeah. Yeah.

Martin P Prihoda (02:48)

That's right. Scott Blackwell. If you're listening,

⁓ we would like to know where you are because I Googled just yesterday, was like Scott Blackwell, Avis Carrental, and nothing came up.

Jason Jacobson (03:00)

He's a scar rental. That's right. He worked at he had a sales thing going on. You know, it's funny is like I've done that with quite a few people from that time because you know, we grew up in the day and age of no social media. So you would, you know, collect someone's phone number or run into them on the street. And that was your, your connection with them. And if they moved or changes our phone number, they were gone. You know, we had we had emails, but emails then to changed and

Martin P Prihoda (03:04)

at the airport.

Right?

Jason Jacobson (03:29)

So there's a lot of people from my past that I wouldn't mind connecting with again that have completely vanished. I can't find them on social media. So it's an interesting realm.

Martin P Prihoda (03:40)

Well, the problem with emails back then is that you have to go to the internet cafe to check your hotmail. And it's like, know, it's like, well, it's the fifth of the month, I guess I better check my hotmail over down at the coffee shop there or wherever they had the internet cafe and then it would take you forever to log in. Yeah. So.

Jason Jacobson (03:45)

Yeah, that's true. Yeah, you're AOL. Yeah.

Yeah.

It's kind of funny because we're we're watching

there's a TV show on Netflix called Adolescents. Have you heard of it? Yeah. Have you seen it? Yeah. Yeah, so my it's just won a bunch of awards and we're kind of behind the times. My wife and I watched the first episode a few months ago and then she says I can't keep watching this because it just reminds her of what our kids are going through right now. And then we just started watching it again because both our kids.

Martin P Prihoda (04:08)

Right, I have, yeah. No, I haven't seen it yet, but it's been recommended to me, yeah.

Jason Jacobson (04:32)

have heard about it and there's things going on in their own schools that relate to it. And so last night we watched the second episode together and it was quite amazing. And you as a filmmaker would love it because each episode is shot in one shot. And so all the choreography that goes into making that happen in one shot is crazy. Anyway, the whole basis of it is that these kids live on social media. Like that is their daily life.

Martin P Prihoda (04:47)

Wow.

Jason Jacobson (05:03)

That's how they're represented to the public. That's how they communicate with each other. And so your persona is this social media entity. And it's very easy to bully on there, to make people look bad, to hurt their feelings. And you ⁓ as an individual, as a kid that, know, whose frontal cortex is not even connected right now, to be...

Martin P Prihoda (05:21)

Yes.

Jason Jacobson (05:31)

in that state of mind where you are constantly thinking about how you come across other people through social media is a terrible place to be in. And so it was interesting to watch that with our kids because they're in that right now. And immediately right after the show, they both pulled their phones and they're like, and, know, I don't want to sound like, ⁓ remember those olden days, but you know, we grew up in a world where that didn't exist.

Martin P Prihoda (05:52)

Yeah. Yeah.

I'm with you.

Jason Jacobson (06:01)

And so it's there, what they're going through now is a whole different realm that, they have to battle through.

Martin P Prihoda (06:08)

Well,

when we went to, when we were in high school, you had to wait until, you had to wait until nine o'clock the next day to get bullied again, right? Now it's like, you can get bullied online 24 or seven, right? So, you know, you had a grace period where you go home and have dinner and maybe do some homework and then fall asleep and be like, well, you know, the bullying is just gonna continue where it left off yesterday. But now it's like, you know, so I...

Jason Jacobson (06:17)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Right. Yeah.

Martin P Prihoda (06:38)

It's I mean, I've got a 15 year old. So we've definitely had the talk on on social media. His social media is Instagram and Snapchat. And Snapchat, he had to get the fight for that one. And ⁓ even then, like I've got we've got ⁓ parental controls on it. We've got like he's got a two hour limit on his phone. You know, but yeah, get home he's on reels. ⁓ But it's it's, you know, I go through his stuff. It's mostly just ski videos.

Jason Jacobson (06:47)

Yeah, same.

Yeah.

Martin P Prihoda (07:07)

It's pretty harmless from what I can see and I trust them. So, you we have an open dialogue about it. But, you know, the thing too is when we were growing up, our parents, like my parents knew all my friends, right? Because they came over and they'd call the house and it'd be like, Martin, there's a phone call for you. then Martin, get off the line. I need the phone, right? Like that kind of thing. Now it's like who like what is in their world? Like they're in

You don't know who's in this world of digital online, right? Like you just don't know who they're talking to. You have to really trust them. Like who's talking to my son, who's talking to my daughter right now online.

Jason Jacobson (07:40)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah,

the thing with Snapchat is like, I actually don't mind Snapchat just because it's not like you're posting to the public a lot. It's more kind of like a messaging system, but they're constantly on there sending images of themselves that don't really mean anything. Like I've seen my daughter on there, take a picture of herself, just like, you know, they like half shots of their face or whatever, sent her friend, then go through all the snaps of her friends and not even really look at them.

And you know, I think you did a podcast in the day is like, no one really cares. Like no one's even looking at your images unless it's something crazy. Otherwise, they're just kind of just slipping through it quickly, you know, like, but we live in this world where you think that what everything you do, everybody is thinking about everybody is interested in or judging you. And that's a hard place to be in. Like we already go through that in normal life without social media. Social media enhances that takes it to the next level.

Martin P Prihoda (08:44)

Yeah. Yeah.

Well, it's interesting you say that because I just I just put out a little snippet online that basically said, you know, you know, your life begins when you realize that no one really cares as much as you think they care. And they don't like, we're all so wrapped up in our own little worlds and our own identifications that it's like, you know, it's simultaneously horrifying because you know, like you're alone out there. But at the same time, it's very freeing.

Jason Jacobson (08:45)

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, well, you and I,

I think are in a very similar position right now. We're jumping on social media as middle aged men trying to create a presence. And it's a very, very weird environment and world to I don't feel comfortable doing it. But I feel that in order to get across my message, to share my information with people, that is the way to do it. I have to build a social media presence.

And to do that, you kind of have to post every day. You have to embarrass yourself. You have to say things that are uncomfortable. And it's a weird environment to be in. Like if you didn't grow up doing that from day one to go into that now is awkward because you in my head, you know, I'm thinking, oh, of my so many friends on Instagram, a third of them have known me most of my life.

What are they going to think about me now being this person online? And so then you start thinking, do I sense to myself or do I just let myself be who I think I am or who I am in this moment? And it's a balancing act. And it's a battle that you have with yourself, even though again, like you said, most people don't even care. Yeah. Maybe one person is to go, ⁓ look at him. He's being an idiot. But how does that really matter? You know, and that's what you got to get, got to get through your mind.

is that sense of like, okay, just be yourself. The people that connect with you will connect with you. And the people that don't won't and don't worry about those people. They don't really matter. And that's a really hard state of mind to come in touch with and figure out when you're going to that world.

Martin P Prihoda (10:49)

That you're 100 % right.

Yeah. And I think there's a, you know, one of my teachers once told me that if it resonates with you and it's your truth and you feel it as your authentic truth, there are going to be a hundred thousand people out there that will also resonate with that. Just be yourself and speak, you know, try to excavate down to your deepest authentic self that you can and send out that signal and your signal will be received by people that will

you know, acknowledge that frequency for lack of a better word. But one thing I really appreciate about you is that, you know, because I've just been witness to your life and your accomplishments for the last, you know, 25, 30 years is that you have a real ability to reinvent yourself. Like you went from, you went from a struggling screenwriter to a, you know, a filmmaker that started MyYogaOnline. You took that to a tremendous success. You sold that for

eight figures to Gaia. That's a huge win early on in your life. Then you moved to Colorado, you ran marathons. I think you did boxing at some point. You then, ⁓ I think you started doing standup comedy and throughout that time you've been writing books. You're not somebody that has stayed still. So for you to come online and do what you're doing now, to me does not seem like a big stretch for you. It just seems like a natural progression of this.

life lineage, this chain of reinventions that you've that you've been doing with yourself.

Jason Jacobson (12:35)

Yeah, you know, it's funny. I dropped my daughter off at school today and as I was driving home, I was just thinking about how. You know my life that let I leave right now and and and everybody's lives you you drift into this what I would call your comfort zone. You know we live in a life of comfort that that zone where OK, this is my routine. I feel good here. This is where I'm to be. And you know what though? Comfort is your enemy.

Like it's, it's you get into a comfort zone. You're not going to change. You're not going to grow. You're not going to try new things. You're not going to go out meet that new person that might change your life. You're not going to go for that next job. You're not going to start that startup that you think you have that great idea for because you're comfortable and, and it's very difficult to break out of that comfort zone. And then you also have like people that have terrible lives that, you know, they're in abusive relationships. They're

they're unhappy with their job, they're unhappy with their situation, whatever it is, and yet that's what they know. So it's comfortable to them. And because it's comfortable to them, even though it's not ideal, they stick to it because breaking out of that is the unknown. And the unknown is very scary to a lot of people. And that is something that people need to figure out and how to get out of that is very difficult to do.

Martin P Prihoda (13:53)

Sure.

Jason Jacobson (14:02)

For me, it's just been like, I've always had this thing in my head about tangents. I think what happened is when I was young, it's funny, I don't know if this is the first time, but like, Gwyneth Paltrow made a movie, I think it was called Sliding Doors, maybe, I don't know. And I might be referring to it completely wrong here. But it was like, she literally, I think it was like, you go through the sliding doors of a train and her life goes in a completely different direction. And...

Martin P Prihoda (14:18)

Yep.

I know the film you're talking about.

Right.

Jason Jacobson (14:31)

And I always thought that like, you know, I always look back and I think, okay, what if I had taken that different route? What if I'd gone that way? How would my life be different? And, you know, a lot of people have regret because they think, oh my God, I didn't follow that path I should have followed. And so me personally, I've tried to make it a goal through my life to, if an opportunity presents itself or something comes up that motivates me to just take the chance to try it.

And then and then not worry about whether I fail at it because I fail all the time or or if it takes me out of my comfort zone, which I was just talking about. I just try it. You know, and I did that recently with stand up comedy. I thought, you know what? I think I can be funny. Sometimes, you know, and I've got a more sarcastic sense of humor, and I thought, you know, what if I just am a writer? So what if I just try writing jokes and.

and getting up on stage. So I signed up for a standup comedy course and I went once a week for a week for, guess, sorry, I once a week for two months. And then at the end of it, you get up in front of a group of people, you invite your friends, everybody else in the class invites their friends. There's like a hundred people there. The teacher rents out a space and you do a five minute set that you've been practicing and working on the whole time. And, and

Martin P Prihoda (15:48)

Mm-hmm.

Jason Jacobson (15:55)

It was such an invigorating and creative experience for me because every week I had to come to class with new jokes. So it forced me to write every day and kind of step out of my zone. And it's kind of funny. Like I would show up at class every week with pages of jokes because every day I would sit down and write because I'm a writer. I, I, I can, I can. That's another thing is like, you've got to be persistent. You got to be, you got to get that, that groove going. It's just like working out.

Martin P Prihoda (16:13)

Right.

Jason Jacobson (16:24)

writing every day, working out every day. So I would write every day and I would show up at class with this list of jokes that I would get up in front of the class and do it. And some people would show up there with one joke or say they couldn't write. I'm thinking, wow, this comes easy to me because it's something I do. And then at the end of the two months, we got up and we did the performance and I was sweating and I was terrified. And as it got closer to me going up on stage, was, you know,

wondering and questioning myself, is this the right thing to do? I didn't make the right decision. And I see these people in the audience. I'm thinking, are they gonna laugh at me because I'm funny or are they gonna laugh because I'm a complete idiot? But I went up there and I got, I was invigorated and it was an amazing feeling. And then after that, thought, I want to do this more seriously. So I looked for open mics nights every week and I would go down to Vancouver. I live just outside of Vancouver. would go downtown three to four nights a week, find an open mic.

and go up on stage and practice my jokes. I did that for like six months and it was a great experience, a great experience. And I haven't been doing it lately because I've been busy with other ventures, but like I'd go back to it in a second. You don't make any money doing it. Well, some people do, but very rarely, but it's a great thing to take you out of your comfort zone, to tap into creativity, to, figure out who you are and how you look at life and

Martin P Prihoda (17:26)

That's amazing.

Wow. No.

Jason Jacobson (17:52)

You know, I'd recommend it for anyone, even if you're not a comedian. But I'm blabbering on here. But my whole idea is that I had that idea and I pursued it. And a lot of people won't do it because they're afraid of not only failure, but how they will come across to other people. And that's a state of mind you need to get out of in your life in order to change and to to experience new things.

Martin P Prihoda (18:21)

right? Well, and I remember, I remember seeing you online doing this. And I'm like, man, I can't think of a more masochistic thing to do than stand up comedy. And I have a number of friends ⁓ that have done stand up and are and are actually working comedians. And man, they can be like the most depressing people. Like it's crazy. Like what what is the whole stand up thing? What you don't see behind the scenes. But I always thought that, you know,

Jason Jacobson (18:48)

and introverts.

Martin P Prihoda (18:50)

Yeah, and I just thought what a courageous, either the courageous or like masochistic or just crazy to go up and do stand up. And, you know, like, I think if you're doing an open mic, and it's like amateur night or whatever, there's probably a lot more leeway. But if you're doing this as a profession, and like people have paid money, like to see you be funny, like, fuck, that's a lot of pressure.

Jason Jacobson (19:16)

You know what's interesting is what you're saying is I think it's the complete opposite. Because when you go to these open mics, there's no real people there. Everybody there is a comedian. And they're all there to do their own jokes in the audience. So you got like 10 to 20 people in the audience and there's not one real person that came in off the street that's watching you. It's all just comedians wanting to get up on stage and tell their jokes. And comedians very rarely laugh at other comedians jokes.

Martin P Prihoda (19:20)

Really?

No, but like in the audience.

I see. Okay, okay. It's all just okay.

Jason Jacobson (19:45)

unless they're really funny. And so you go up there and it's dead silence. And then you'll hear a laughter somewhere in the room. go, okay, that joke works. And then you get home. I would record every time I went. You get home and you look at your recording and you listen for the jokes. go, okay, listen for the laughs. And you go, okay, that worked. And then you put that joke aside. And then...

And then you build that repertoire and you get you over time, you get up to this repertoire where you've got five minutes that you know gets last because it worked on the most ardent, least impressed people. Exactly. And so by the time you got that five minutes and then you book a show where you get into in front of an audience that is real people, you have a set. You have something that you've

Martin P Prihoda (20:23)

Yeah, the most critical people, yeah.

Jason Jacobson (20:38)

you've tried and tested over and over again, like those top comedians that have the one hour special on Netflix, they it's there's a routine, they go to the comedy clubs, even the big names, and they practice their jokes. Every day, they go on tour, they have like a set of jokes that work and then they feed in a minute or two that they haven't tried before. And then by the end of the year, they have their one hour comedy routine that they film and by then

Martin P Prihoda (21:06)

the paper.

Jason Jacobson (21:08)

They've done it over and over again. So yeah, but you do fail. You do fail like along the way you show up in front of audiences that don't get you and stuff like that. And

Martin P Prihoda (21:10)

Right, they got the timing down and everything.

Well, I grew up on George Carlin and my parents loved George Carlin just because he was so irreverent politically and religiously. To me, he was just flawless. To me, a kid watching that, going, that man is funny and he does not make a mistake. What he's saying is not fluff. It's critical of the government. It's critical of society. It's critical of the elitism. So, I think George Carlin really set the bar in a lot of ways. To me, he was brilliant.

Jason Jacobson (21:47)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Martin P Prihoda (21:49)

And I guess, you know, it depends on your personality type, whether you go anti-politics, anti-you know, I mean, you can go in there and bash Trump for 20 minutes, but then I guess if people like Trump in the audience, you're not gonna be as funny to them. So like, so I guess what I'm asking you is...

Jason Jacobson (22:05)

Yeah, it's you know, I don't want to make this whole podcast about talking about comedy and telling jokes,

but like you figure out who you are.

you figure out who you are as a person, like.

Martin P Prihoda (22:17)

⁓ sorry, sorry,

just go ahead. think we just blocked.

Jason Jacobson (22:20)

Yeah, you figure out who you are as a person. you just. Like the jokes I started telling were about my family and my my kids and my wife and my relationship with them, because that was what I knew, you know. And then I I didn't tell jokes about business or or anything about investing or like working in that environment, because. I couldn't find the funny in that and they also I was telling these jokes to to comedians in their 20s.

early 30s who don't get some of that stuff. So you got to figure out who your audience is too. it's, it's so it really, it really trains you for how you come across to people, how to listen to other people, how to, find things that you think that people are going to be interested in hearing you say and

It's it's it's a great way to really

delve into who you are as a person when you're doing something like stand-up comedy. And it's kind of interesting that that's kind of just looked at as like a joke to a lot of people, but it's a therapeutic way of discovering who you are.

Martin P Prihoda (23:34)

Right? And so that's just to segue off of that is, you you've already accomplished what you've already accomplished in life, what most people define as success in the end all be all, is, you know, becoming wealthy. You accomplished that, I think, in your 30s when you sold toGaia, right? You must have been in your early 40s, maybe, when you guys, when you guys... So you've been rich, right? So that's like check mark. So what is it that keeps motivating you?

Jason Jacobson (23:55)

Yeah, that's my 40s.

Martin P Prihoda (24:04)

beyond sort of an acquisition of wealth or an act like what is the deeper motivation for you to do these things, to go from that, to stand up to ⁓ now like being online or using your voice. Like what is it that, what is it that keeps pushing you? Why not just rest on the laurels of your successes and be comfortable? What's wrong with being comfortable, right? Like at this point. I mean, I know the answer for myself, but I'm just asking you.

Jason Jacobson (24:29)

Money is a-

Yeah, money is a weird entity. It's a weird motivation. ⁓ I don't like it. I don't like the thought of money and having to build your life around achieving money and having it. you know, when I was, you know, everybody talks about these teachers that they have that had a profound effect on them. I had like, I think two in my entire life.

two teachers that really kind of I connected with and I think ⁓ made a change in my life. And one was a grade five teacher that I had. ⁓ Mr. Held was his name. And we did a play in class, Christmas play. And he was kind of off the wall. He decided to do a re-making of Tommy by The Who. And it was like The Who soundtrack of Tommy.

Martin P Prihoda (25:30)

Nice.

Jason Jacobson (25:31)

and to a Christmas theme. that's all I kind of remember. And he had the kids audition for it. And he cast me as Tommy, the lead. And I was like, I was like me, like, I didn't think of myself as a person that could act. I didn't think of myself as a creative person. But it really, I think it had a profound effect on me because it took me out of my comfort zone at a very, very young age. I was 10 years old. And

Martin P Prihoda (25:41)

Pinball wizard.

Jason Jacobson (26:00)

and gave me that kind of performing instinct of wanting to be on stage sometimes. And that was a very big moment for me creatively. ⁓ My dad was an entrepreneur business person always his entire life. So I grew up in a world where my father was always reinventing himself with businesses and trying new businesses. And he failed quite a few times and it put us in financial straits that were

Martin P Prihoda (26:06)

Mm-hmm.

Jason Jacobson (26:31)

difficult to get through. And but I never looked at him badly for that. Like that we struggled at times. I'm more and I'm more like like the fact that he was, you know, making something of himself and trying new things, even though he did fail. And he failed a lot. But it put us, you know, our adolescence, we're so affected by who our parents are, who our friends are upbringing, you know, the

the influences around us that our decision making and our goals oftentimes become this manifestation of what is around us, not who we are or what we're looking for. And, because of the failures of my dad, because of judgments from my friends at the time, because they knew I think we, had, grew up in this house that was extremely messy, extremely messy.

Martin P Prihoda (27:13)

Mm-hmm.

Do you mean emotionally messy or physically messy?

Jason Jacobson (27:30)

My mom was physically

like my mom was a hoarder. ⁓ We had at sometimes 13 to 15 cats and dogs. There is like shit all over the house. Like cat shit. ⁓ Chaos. ⁓ There were no rules in my house. I could stay up as late as I want. Wanted I could do whatever I wanted. ⁓

Martin P Prihoda (27:35)

Okay.

You grew up in a bit of chaos.

Jason Jacobson (27:58)

And I think it was because my parents trusted me like I had two great parents. are very loving parents, but. My mom history wise, you know she came from a ⁓ Polish family that came over here after the war. Well, actually after World War One and and she grew up with two immigrant parents that didn't speak English that hoarded money in their mattresses. And I think she always felt that she needed to make something of herself and when she didn't.

I think that affected her and she became emotionally unstable and that affected the household. And I think she went into a lot of depression, didn't clean that kind of stuff. Anyway, I was very embarrassed of my upbringing at the time. I couldn't have friends over. I think my friends knew that and I was very self-conscious of myself. And so I had it in my head that I needed to make money in order to prove myself. That was my head space, know, become

Martin P Prihoda (28:55)

Right. That was your statement.

Yeah.

Jason Jacobson (28:58)

financially

successful and everything also come into place. That was the be all and end all. So I had this teacher in grade 10 who actually I'm still I'm friends with on Facebook. See, there you go. Connecting with people on Facebook. His name was Mr. Hicks, Rusty Hicks. He wasn't much older than us. I was like, what, 17 years old. He was his first year teaching. So I'm guessing he was 24. So he's only seven years older than us when you look at it that way.

And he always encouraged me to be creative. And that was a big aspect of my relationship with him. He was my English teacher and my economics teacher. And I remember him pulling me aside one time saying, what do you want to do with your life? He said, and I said, ⁓ I dunno, probably do business, something in business. And he said, have you ever thought about doing something creative? And I said to him, there's no money in being creative.

That was my response. And I remember it very vividly. And he kind of laughed. And later on in that year, he had us make a list of where we wanted to be at certain stages of our lives. Like at the age of 25, 30, 40, 50, where did we see ourselves? So we put together a list and my list was like, by the age of 25, I want to be worth a million dollars by 30, 10 million by 40, a hundred million by 50, a billion like

Martin P Prihoda (29:59)

⁓ no.

Jason Jacobson (30:26)

All of my goals were financial.

It was such a wrong way of looking at life because the way I got to being financially successful was by dropping all that shit, by not having that as my be all and end all. And it took a long time to get there. And the way I got there was by realizing that my, desire, that goal of becoming financially

Martin P Prihoda (30:50)

yeah.

Jason Jacobson (31:00)

stable and successful didn't correlate with what interested me in life. You know, so I graduated from high school and I went to one of the top business schools in Canada and I got accepted into that school, into that business school right away, which meant like you were in the business school year one and every single one of your courses was a business. You weren't able to do

any kind of outside courses like English or psychology or philosophy. It was just all business. And about two years in, I had like an epiphany. I was like, I hated every minute of this. I did not enjoy it. ⁓ I wasn't, I didn't see myself graduating and working in an office for some other person because the fact of showing up at a desk job every day just did not appeal to me. I wanted to be out there.

trying new things, being creative. And I realized that this is not what I wanted to do with myself. ⁓ My dad had passed away of cancer my last year of high school. So when I went away to university, I was in a weird head space. wasn't accepting the fact that he had passed away. was, I think I was in a deep depression. I was drinking a lot. ⁓ I wasn't doing well in school.

And I wasn't emotionally stable. I was closed off. I wasn't socializing with people. It was a really hard time. then, ⁓ like I said, about halfway through I went, we went to, ⁓ my roommate and I went to Mexico for March break and we were flying back and the plane was circling the Toronto airport. And I was looking out the window and there's young street is the main street there. And was looking up the street.

Martin P Prihoda (32:35)

Yeah.

Jason Jacobson (32:55)

trying to picture where my house was because it was way north of Toronto just off of Yonge Street. And the next thing I knew, I was crying. And I didn't want my roommate to see me, so I was looking at the window and I realized that I hadn't really cried since my dad passed away. I had all this bottle of emotion that I hadn't expressed. And so the plane landed, I went back to school, I finished the second year of school, and then I realized,

I needed to figure this out and I hadn't been writing. I never really written anything in my life. And so I bought a journal. started journaling and kind of getting ideas out of me. And that was great because it started like I started to express myself and figure out what was happening inside myself. But I, I want to do something else. And I really enjoyed film. I enjoyed movies all my life. And so I went to a bookstore and I bought a book called Sid Field Screenwriting Book. was a book on

Martin P Prihoda (33:52)

I know it well. I know it well. Sid Fields.

Jason Jacobson (33:52)

writing screenplays. Yeah, you know well. And that

that summer, I wrote a feature length screenplay about the last three years of my dad's life. And that was like, the first time I ever done anything creative. It was a piece of shit. I never showed it to anyone. But it got that the creative juices flowing and got this emotions out of me. And I realized, huh, this is very cathartic. I this is something that I could see myself doing for

living is writing screenplays and making films. And so, but I also wasn't a quitter. So I decided that I was going to finish my four years of school, University for Business graduate, and then I was going to go to film school. And that's what I did. I graduated and then I applied to film school and I came out to Vancouver to go to Vancouver Film School, their film school production program, which was a one year program. Yeah, sorry.

Martin P Prihoda (34:47)

Right. think

that around that time we must have met. year are you thinking now? it 97? Yeah, yeah. 94 I was in Europe. Yeah.

Jason Jacobson (34:53)

no, that was 94, 95. You and I met in 97, I think. I know my years. Yeah.

And, ⁓ and so I came out here to film school and it was an unbelievable experience. I loved every minute of it. It was immersive for one year. You learn everything. You learn lighting, sound production. You make a documentary, you make a short film on film. Back then it was 16 millimeter and then you edit it on these steam backs.

with physical film, which is how I learned to edit. And I still look back at that time and think, I love that I learned to edit using a steam back because it makes me think about editing different even though I'm using Premiere or Final Cut now, you know? ⁓ yeah, and that was, I guess that was my, what I would call my first tangent of my life was moving out to Vancouver on my own, getting away from my mom, even though I loved her.

Martin P Prihoda (35:23)

All right, let's get back. Yep.

Jason Jacobson (35:50)

getting away from friends that had known me all my life. When I went to university, a lot of people that I went to university with, my girlfriend specifically, I went to high school with. And so I felt like I was being judged for who I was during my high school years and not for who I was becoming as a person now. And so when you make a big move like that, moving across the country,

and you're delved into a situation where you're meeting new people for the first time, you're able to rediscover yourself. And that was pivotal for me because I realized then how I came across to people, positive and negative. ⁓ You know, it's funny when I think I made some great friends in film school, there's some lifelong friends I still have now. And they gave me the nickname in my in my during film school.

of Mr. Surly. And I thought it was funny at the time. And, but now I look back, I thought, I think, why were they calling me Mr. Surly? Because I was grumpy, because I kept to myself because I, I had an attitude, you know? Yeah, yeah. And I think I've tried both my life to lose that persona that Mr. Surly thing, because that was a persona I developed over time, because of my upper

Martin P Prihoda (37:01)

Lill arrogant. Lill arrogant.

Jason Jacobson (37:13)

upbringing because of how I felt that came across to people. And it was very eye opening for me. So those moves that you make where you, you move out of your comfort zone and you, you move to a different city and you, put yourself in a position that is new are very eye opening as an individual for learning about who you are as a person or who you need to become.

Martin P Prihoda (37:38)

Right. Well, and as a matter of fact, just to segue into your book, Strategic Instinct, ⁓ you know, I'm just a full disclosure. I'm not fully completed yet. I think I'm on page 130 or 140, but I'm actually reading it. No, actually, because, you know, the infographics, I like the infographics. I go through the different charts and the risk charts and all that. And I'm like, okay, and apply it to my life. But your...

Jason Jacobson (37:52)

That's a good place to stop right there. Yeah.

Martin P Prihoda (38:07)

Just the way you've written it. I am I actually was I was impressed with the fact that there is a Vulnerability to it where you use a lot of your own you speak a lot about your own failings and a lot of your own fears and I thought that was quite refreshing because I Wasn't sure I was gonna expect that from you that there was gonna be a vulnerability to it, but there was and And I really what you know what the book the book speaks to me a lot about trust

I think there's a real component of trusting yourself in that book that I enjoyed. And that's what I wanted to sort of segue into that. can we develop, how can we further develop that instinct, that intuition where we can balance the risk reward? Because you have a couple of infographics there that...

you know, the high risk, high reward versus low risk and how to mitigate those things. I don't know, I guess my question for you would be, ⁓ you know, how do we tap into it? Because you have to sort of tap into that part of yourself to be, to trust that intuition and that instinct, don't you?

Jason Jacobson (39:21)

Yeah, you know, you're talking about high risk, high reward, or high risk, low reward. It's funny. There's that guy. I'm going off topic here. But there's that guy frees the free solo kind of climber that climbs. I don't know what the mountain. Yeah, they climb that mountain tomorrow. Tomorrow. They're doing a live show on Netflix where he's going to climb the world's tallest building or something live.

Martin P Prihoda (39:37)

yeah, Alex Hummold. Alex?

Skyscraper, yeah.

Jason Jacobson (39:51)

And I'm like, okay, that in my opinion is high risk, low reward. Like, yeah, you're gonna be telephysed, they're probably gonna pay you, but you could die. that's, there's death on the line there. That's really like, that's the ultimate risk is you will die if you make a mistake. And I think that's the biggest.

thing that most people don't realize is that most decision making where they think there's a big risk, there isn't a big risk. There's a very, it's a very low risk. And yet there could be a high reward because of that risk because most decisions are not affecting, if not life or death situations, there may be, ⁓

Maybe someone will think badly about me or there are a lot of reasons people don't make decisions are because of outside sources that they think are judging them and not based on actual fact.

Martin P Prihoda (40:58)

Right, well

there's also a sort of a paralysis that happens from anxiety of fear, fear of the future, fear of what can happen, then you sort of get paralyzed into non-action. And that's almost worse because you're just like, you spend so much of your life like a deer in headlights. Like I'm afraid I can't.

Jason Jacobson (41:06)

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah, our minds

are programmed to, to, think, to rethink, to analyze, to, to, to, judge, to, to, to problem solve. And, and we can get caught in that loop. And that loop will prevent you from moving forward, you know, and, sometimes you have to like, be like, like a racehorse and have those blinders on and not look to the right, not look to the left, not worry about what's out there and just focus on what's in front of you.

Martin P Prihoda (41:36)

Right.

Jason Jacobson (41:46)

because that's how you're to get there. And you have to realize also that it's stages of time, like you might have a goal of where you want to be a year from now, but you can't jump to that. You have to get there one step at a time. And that means that you have to do a daily, you have to do it every day and you can't back off of that. And that's, but you know, it's the mind.

Martin P Prihoda (42:04)

Yeah.

Jason Jacobson (42:18)

refocuses it re analyzes and when you when you start doing something for a certain period of time, it then becomes habit. But you have to work through it to get to that habit. So like, you know, it's like starting a new workout regime, or like writing starting a book, you know, the first couple weeks of writing every day or working out every day are the hardest. But once you get there's a little hump there that once you get over it, then it becomes routine.

And then you're then you're off to the races. But during those first couple of weeks, you question yourself, is this worth it? Am I making the right move? Can I keep doing this? And then and then you quit. And you don't make it to that that precipice that you need to get over in order to to make it to the next level. And and that's a big trap that a lot of people fall into.

Martin P Prihoda (43:08)

Yeah, so that's, yeah, that's, that's, that's my, you know, that's the interesting thing in my own, that's my own interest in this sort of realm of psychology, is that how do we tap into that part of ourselves, which I would call the witnessing self, which is the part that can observe that mental action in your mind that's going, I cannot good enough, I'm not good enough. mean, you know, like, I can't do this, right. So many people live in that world, that to create space around that, and just to be like, okay, I'm not

that thought I am the observer of that thought and I'm just I know my intuition and my wisdom is telling me that this is the right move. I'm going to do it and I'm going to push through that that mumbo jumbo like needle in a record kind of groove same song shit right.

Jason Jacobson (43:53)

Right.

Yeah, it's, you know, I'm not, I don't, I don't want to talk about suicide, but I will talk about being in a bad relationship. Like, ⁓ you know, you, know you're a very big meditation guy. ⁓ My wife is a huge TM, transit mental meditation person. She's like, that's she's been doing for 20 years. She's big into it.

Martin P Prihoda (43:57)

So.

Jason Jacobson (44:23)

⁓ when I was, when I, around the time I met you, I was coming out of a really bad relationship, someone that I thought I was going to get married to that I was going to be with for the rest of my life. And it ended and it ended in a bad way. And I was lost and I didn't know how to get out of that head space. And that it was very dire straits for me at the time. And I, I went and I.

was proactive and I bought a couple books on meditation. And I started reading through it because I didn't know anything about meditation or how to meditate or what the effects were or anything like that. And the book I read at the time just says, you know, just sit still and count to 10 and just concentrate on the numbers. Don't and if your mind drifts, start over.

start again and just get to 10 and once you get to 10 start again and if a thought comes just let that watch that thought go and and drift past and that was the beginning of meditation very simple stuff that was the beginning of meditation for me and I literally couldn't sit for more than a minute or two minutes without the desperate thoughts of where I was in my mind with this relationship and I could not figure out how I was going to get out of it.

Martin P Prihoda (45:41)

Mm-hmm.

Jason Jacobson (45:50)

But I dedicated myself to meditating and then eventually I got to like 20 minutes a day where I would sit there and I was able to focus and and let thoughts drift by without them affecting me. And it made a huge difference for me and and and it allowed me to calm my mind. But what was even bigger than that was the somehow and I don't know how I learned this, whether it was from those books or from just my own experiences was

I was able to, like we were just saying, almost like bring myself outside of my own head and look down on myself. You know, like you see those films where someone's in a hospital bed and they have a death experience where they die for a moment and then they find themselves up in a far corner of the room looking down at themselves and they see themselves in the bed and they see the family around them and they have that outer body experience. Well, I had that kind of feeling when I was

Martin P Prihoda (46:28)

Mm-hmm.

Jason Jacobson (46:50)

meditating where I was above myself looking down on myself and just analyzing who I was I wasn't me at that moment I was some other being had no

emotional connection to that person sitting there analyzing what they were in the situation they're in and realizing this is nothing. This is this is one little hiccup in a long life that that person is going to get through. And yeah, it's going to be painful. There's going to be struggles to get through that, but they're going to get there. And the other thing I was able to do is I was able to somehow go, OK, where do I see myself a year from now?

Where do I see myself a couple of years from now? Am I going to be in a happier head space, a better head space? And if so, try to put myself in that head space and now look back at this moment at that person and, and say, Hey, this is just a step. You're to get through this. And that was a huge part for me. And, ⁓ I think that's an ability or some, or a great little.

Martin P Prihoda (47:52)

Yeah.

Jason Jacobson (48:02)

exercise for people to have or take when they're feeling emotionally unstable or stuck in that loop of something bad that's happening in their headspace.

Martin P Prihoda (48:14)

Well, absolutely. I'm I ⁓ daily meditation practice is a non negotiable for me at this point. Like, it's just, it's so incorporated into my life, just to start my day by connecting to that witnessing self, which creates space around everything else. And, know, you talk you had mentioned suicide, why I'm not sure if I ever told you about my dad, but my dad committed suicide. I'm not sure he died in 96.

Jason Jacobson (48:44)

so you were in your, you're in your twenties at the time. Yeah.

Martin P Prihoda (48:44)

He must have died. I was 21. Yeah.

my dad had like neither of my parents had any type of spiritual practice or any. My dad was an engineer. My mom was a doctor. They were immigrants from communist Czechoslovakia. There was no, ⁓ you know, there was no sort of spiritual or faith based anything, right? Everything was very analytical and very, they were very hardworking immigrants. ⁓

So his death was a huge lesson for me because I was like, whoa, so this is what can happen if you get so far down, like so far into your head, into that space in your head where you lose all reference that you just have to end your life. Like that's a very dark place to be. So, you know, my part of my whole journey was like, how can I avoid ever getting to that spot? Because this is my dad, know, our DNA is very similar. This could very well happen to me. And that set me off of my

Jason Jacobson (49:14)

So, yeah.

Yeah, it is.

Martin P Prihoda (49:42)

You know, in many ways I look at his death as a gift that set me off on my own yoga journey and my own journey, you know, to just know myself and self-actualization is really the goal for me, just to excavate deeper into myself. So, and the mental health that comes from that, you know, so that's why I'm so passionate about it because I really think it helps. And like you said, you described it perfectly. Like what you're describing is that

Jason Jacobson (50:02)

Yeah.

Martin P Prihoda (50:11)

witnessing self looking at the Jason that is whose identity has been vanquished by this woman who was falling apart because you know in relationships your your identities intertwine right so when one person leaves it's like half of your identity is being ripped off and if you're so rooted in that identity then you just feel like you've been you've been eviscerated yet there is that part of Jason that was looking down going hey it's gonna be okay like

It's, you know, this is, we're gonna get through this. Like, what is that part? That's the part to me that works well in your book. That is where the strategic instinct comes from. That deeper witnessing self.

Jason Jacobson (50:51)

Yeah. ⁓

You know what it is, is the whole idea of strategic instinct is, is being able to be in touch. I use the word gut, being in touch with your gut, being in touch with your, your, yeah, yeah, being like it's trusting your gut to when you don't know what's going to happen next. Like you really got to

Martin P Prihoda (51:04)

Yes, trust. That's why I had mentioned trust.

Jason Jacobson (51:17)

most people are unable to trust their instincts or they feel that instinct building up inside them. And then they, they force it back down because they're not too sure if it's right or wrong. And, and that's the wrong way to go about of it about it. The best way to go about is to let it come up, let that gut feeling come up and, you don't have to do anything drastic. Like I keep saying steps, like one step at a time. Like if, like, I don't know, I can, like an example is

If you're unhappy in your job and you're thinking of quitting and your instinct says walk out now, like walk into your boss's office and quit. But that, that is a big risk financially. It's a big risk emotionally with regards to your family. If you have a family of your, your, so you, of course you, you push that instinct back down and you don't accept it. you, years go by years go by.

and you're in this unhappy state of mind and you're not moving forward because you have a fear that if you do walk into your boss's office and you do quit, then what? And so there's never any steps being made. Well, you don't need to walk into your boss's office and quit. What you need to do is tap into what interests you outside of your job that may be a hobby, that may be

something that you've never pursued before that you could just start doing in your off hours that we're in a day and age now with, with AI, which I don't want to talk too much about AI, like with AI, with resources that are free with building websites or, or starting new businesses that you could do on your own for near nothing financially. That didn't exist when I was younger. So

The risk of quitting your job back in the nineties or early two thousands to pursue something new meant you might have to mortgage your house to start a new business or whatever. Now you could start something, an idea on the side with no money and see if it works. And if it doesn't work, you still have your job and your own happier job. But if it does work, then you've got that base, that base that you could fall back on.

that you're okay. Now I can make that next step, which is walking into my boss's office and saying, I'm done, or asking to cut back hours or negotiating. gives you a leverage. It gives you leverage to negotiate a different situation. So if you're not, so you don't necessarily need to quit your job. You may, it might give you the leverage to have confidence to negotiate a different salary or a different position at that same

place. So you what you're doing is you're building bases, you're building opportunities around you that give you freedom to make choices. If that makes sense.

Martin P Prihoda (54:23)

Right. So you're, you know, you're, you're, you're, keeping the job, but you're, starting to plan, you're starting to tangent away from just this being like the rest of your existence, like this job, which I don't think any job is like that anymore for anybody. it like the, the, job, like, like the days, the days of like, where you're at a company for 40 years, like our grandparents, like, you know, you got a job at General Electric when you're 22 and you're there till your retirement.

Jason Jacobson (54:36)

Yeah. Yeah.

I don't know.

Martin P Prihoda (54:53)

Like, does that still happen? ⁓ I don't know.

Jason Jacobson (54:56)

Well, people stay, I'm

assuming people stay at Facebook, Microsoft and Tesla for their lives. You know, if they're going to be getting their stock options and stuff, but like, you know, here's the thing is though, okay, I'm an Uber driver, ⁓ Uber eats delivery person. I'm writing a book. I'm making short films on TikTok. doing social media stuff. That's the day and age of someone right now.

Martin P Prihoda (55:01)

Do they? Yes. That's true.

Jason Jacobson (55:23)

where they've got all these things going on at once. And it's almost like it's too much. They're over stimulating, over pushing themselves. But that is how you're making a living now. And that gets that you get stuck in that too. Like, and is this what you really want to be doing? And then how do you get out of that and pursue something that really, really motivates you and makes you who you are as a person and

That is not something easy to pursue. it doesn't, we're in a pressurized society where you're expected to make decisions when you're 17, 18 years old with regards to whether you're going away to university or not. And if you're not, what are you going to do with your life? Regardless of how the world functions now with the gig economy, you're still being forced to decide, am I going to keep going to school? And if I'm not, what am I going to do with my life? Because I need to pay.

to survive. And those decisions force you to make very comfortable decisions, meaning like, what's going to pay the bills right now? And what's going to make bring food onto the table and put a roof over my head. And when you make decisions based on that, then you get usually get stuck in a position that you're unhappy with. but it's I get it.

Martin P Prihoda (56:25)

Yeah.

Right.

Jason Jacobson (56:52)

You know, especially when you're grew up in America, where you've got student loans, how do you get out of that? That umbrella that that weight that's coming down on you to try something new and expand yourself because a lot of times you're limited, you know.

Martin P Prihoda (57:12)

Yeah, so like, interesting, like back into my backstory relating to you and the quitting of the job. But my, my parallel to that was, ⁓ you know, I was in third year of university, was doing psychology. And then my dad died when I was 21 to 2122. And I tried to go back to school. And I was just so messed up that I was like, I

I was sitting in these lecture halls listening to the and I was like, I wasn't getting my work done. I was just my head I was like, and I was I was almost disembodied from this experience. So I ended up dropping out of university and not finishing my degree. But at that time, too, I was doing a lot of photography on the side. And I was like, I had to sit down and I had to say to myself, look, dude, if you're not going to finish your degree, and you're going to like do this photography thing, you understand the risk you're taking, right, you're not going to have a degree to fall back on.

which is what everybody says, you got to get your degree so you have a degree to fall back on. I like, I'm not going to finish this. can't, I'm going to go. And so I got into film, I got jobs in film. And then eventually I found photography in my mid to late 20s, started doing that seriously. And then, you know, the in moving to India was the big kicker, right? Like I just, I just pushed through and I just found a lot of success over there. So was very lucky. But

Jason Jacobson (58:04)

Right.

Right. Yeah.

Martin P Prihoda (58:33)

Still to this day, I'm just like, you that was a huge risk. Walking out of that, walking out of that dean, of the dean of psychology's office and say, I'm not going to finish this. He's like, are you sure? Are you sure? I'm like, I can't, I can't do this. And, you know, so that was a strategic instinct for me, I think, because I was just, there was that voice going, this is, do this. And luckily I met some success with that. But,

Jason Jacobson (58:37)

yeah.

I

am going to say this, and I'm going to say that what we are saying right now is not for everyone. There are people that thrive and survive on structure and knowing where they're going to be next and planning everything out and not going on that tangent. And I get it. I get it because that's who you are instinctually and for that.

Martin P Prihoda (59:21)

Mm-hmm.

Jason Jacobson (59:27)

Strategic instinct is not for you when it comes to careers, but just in general life, you know, it's about like being willing to just go out your comfort zone. If there's an opportunity to go to a party that you don't feel comfortable about going to because you don't know the people there, go to the party because you never know who you're going to meet at that party and how they might change your life, whether it's a relationship or a connection that

Martin P Prihoda (59:47)

Mm-hmm.

Jason Jacobson (59:56)

might lead to a job opportunity down the road. And that was something I learned as well is that never give up the opportunity to do something. If someone invites you on a vacation somewhere and you don't feel comfortable going for some reason, but you think that's probably gonna be, it could be a great experience, go. Just do it. Go outside your comfort zone because that...

little decision might change your life forever in a positive way. And, and that it's those little decisions. I'm not talking about the big decision. I'm talking about like the little decisions. And I'm just going to say, I don't know what our time is, but I'm say this really quickly, because this is the first tangent that I had that really changed my life forever. And I'm just going to tell it to you really briefly, and how it was, it was based on a basic phone call, really. And

I don't think this is in my book. It's funny, I wrote the book and I forget what's in it sometimes. But I graduated from film school. It was the Sunday after we finished. People were already packing up and leaving. And I get a phone call on like, think it was a Saturday, I think it was a Sunday morning from a friend.

Martin P Prihoda (1:01:00)

It's okay. So there's a lot, there's a lot of pages.

Jason Jacobson (1:01:24)

that I met through someone at film school that lives in Portland, which is a five and a half hour drive from Vancouver or so. And she said that she's got tickets to go see the Grateful Dead. Oh, this must have been Saturday. She said, this is Saturday. She says, we have tickets to go and see the Grateful Dead on Sunday. Would you like to come with me in Portland? And I had never really listened to the Grateful Dead, wasn't a fan, didn't know their music, but I liked her. was a nice person.

I thought, huh, this is an opportunity. I'm not doing anything right now because I just finished school. I'm going to drive down there and go to the concert with her. And so I pack up my car. I have this old beat up Pathfinder and I, ⁓ I packed up a little bit more than I usually would. I put my guitar in there. put my laptop in there. ⁓ some other stuff, some clothes, and I drove down to see her. I get down there, sorry. I spend the night next day.

Martin P Prihoda (1:01:59)

⁓ Nice.

Jason Jacobson (1:02:20)

We go with our friends to the Grateful Dead. I don't do drugs, but they're doing, they're smoking pot and doing mushrooms. I took mushrooms for the first time. It was not a great experience, but that's a different story. Afterwards, it took me a few days to recover from that whole incident. And we were sitting around a cafe and I said,

Martin P Prihoda (1:02:41)

How much mushrooms

did you take? Too many. Okay, let's save that for the next podcast.

Jason Jacobson (1:02:43)

It's a story in its own.

Yeah,

yeah. And we're sitting in a cafe and I say I just think, you know, I'm not done. I have a gambling spirit to me. I think I'm going to drive from here to Reno, which is a nine hour drive and do some gambling. And so I so I drive down to Reno. I get to Reno. I have no money. I'm broke. Like I literally broke and I I go.

Martin P Prihoda (1:03:07)

So I sure was talking.

Jason Jacobson (1:03:17)

I I was staying at Circus Circus and I go to Blackjack tables and I instantly win like think $500 and I'm like, wow.

Martin P Prihoda (1:03:28)

Wow.

What on, on, on a roulette or on a blackjack? Nice. Okay.

Jason Jacobson (1:03:31)

I've played blackjack playing blackjack. Yeah. And

my ex girlfriend, the girl that I went to university with that we broke up in first university first year university, we made a pact that if we are still single, when we are 25, there's a possibility we get back together. We figured, you know, maybe we try it again. And I and

Martin P Prihoda (1:03:56)

Is

this the girl that divided you down to the Grateful Dead or is this a different girl?

Jason Jacobson (1:04:00)

Different girl, different girl.

Yeah, I'm going on side tracking. So this is a long story, actually. But this is my first real tangent. So I think it's important because it just shows you how one little decision can to can spiral into a whole bunch of changes. And so anyway, this girlfriend that I had in high school at university in high school was in Vancouver when I left. hadn't seen her yet. Apparently she had gone down to see the Grateful Dead concert as well.

and was at that same concert as me, but we didn't run into each other. And she had gone back to Vancouver and I had gone to Reno and I still hadn't seen her and it had been years. And so I called her. She was staying at her friend's of ours. That's how I got ahold of her. And I said, I'm going to buy you a ticket if you want to come down to Reno right now. I just want some money. I'm going to fly you down. She says, sure. So I think the ticket was like 200 bucks. I flew her down to Reno. We spend the weekend in Reno. We have a great time.

We catch up and we decide to drive from Reno to San Francisco together. So we start driving from Reno to San Francisco and on that drive, she's smoking pot the whole drive with the windows up and it's driving me up the wall. I can't take it. And I'm realizing, and she's talking about stuff that I don't get. She wants to listen to music that I don't like. And I'm realizing we're not the same people we were in high school. I have no interest in her whatsoever.

Martin P Prihoda (1:05:30)

Right.

Jason Jacobson (1:05:31)

This is not going to work out.

Martin P Prihoda (1:05:33)

How much of the $500 do you have left at this point? Like 30 bucks left? That's pretty good. That's pretty good. Of course, 500 backends about $5,000 now.

Jason Jacobson (1:05:36)

I don't know, a couple hundred bucks probably, I don't know. No, a few hundred, a couple hundred, think, I think a couple. Well, I do remember this vividly is that we got that,

no, I remember this vividly, it was like $50 a night to stay at Circus Circus. And I remember this vividly that we had like the steak and lobster special for like $5.99 or something like that the next morning.

Martin P Prihoda (1:05:57)

Yeah. Yeah, you

essentially won about $5,000 of today's money is what you're saying. You have to preface that because $500 doesn't sound like a lot. But this is like 30 years ago. See, won $5,000. Okay. Got it.

Jason Jacobson (1:06:03)

Hey.

Yeah, yeah, inflation hadn't kicked in yet.

So we get to

San Francisco. She has friends there that we meet up with. We spent a couple days in San Francisco. And I'm thinking, OK, I'm done. I'm ready to go back to Vancouver. But I made this far. have a friend from film school that is living now in L.A. I connect with her and she says, why don't you come stay with us for a bit, a week and hang out? I go, absolutely. So then we drive to L.A. So this is all like this is like a week now.

you know, of traveling in the car. Yeah, still with her.

Martin P Prihoda (1:06:42)

Right. you're still with this ex-girlfriend, you're still with this other woman.

So she's following you to this next girl's house. Or is she? Okay. Okay.

Jason Jacobson (1:06:49)

Yes, yeah, she's with me the whole time. And we

get we remember this too. We were like halfway to LA, we pull into a diner. We're sitting at the diner opposite each other eating. And I remember her looking at me really funny. And I go what she says, I don't like the way you eat. I like, ⁓ okay. I'm like,

Martin P Prihoda (1:07:11)

I'm surprised you didn't leave her back in San Francisco. Why are you bringing her to LA?

Jason Jacobson (1:07:15)

Well, she has no way to get back

on her transportation. She doesn't have the money to fly back. So like, I'm we're driving. The only way she's getting back to Vancouver is driving back with me. You know? Yeah, well, this is now anyway, we get to LA. We stay with my friend in the she's in the lower Hollywood Hills. And my ex girlfriend be friends, my friend, they become like best friends over the week, and I ended up doing my own thing.

Martin P Prihoda (1:07:24)

No, get her on her greyhound.

You're too kind. ⁓

boy.

Jason Jacobson (1:07:42)

And

finally, I'm like, we got to get back, I got to get back, I got to move out of my place in Vancouver, because it's only like that thesis coming up. And I'm to move back to Toronto.

Martin P Prihoda (1:07:52)

Mm-hmm.

Jason Jacobson (1:07:54)

The day before we leave, sitting at the coffee, I'm sitting in the living room of this LA house and they've got that UCLA extension programs brochure on the table, coffee table. And what the extension programs are the summer courses that they offer at UCLA. And so I started looking through it and there's classes in there on story writing, short story writing and screenwriting. I think, this would be amazing to take. You know, I just graduated from film school.

And ⁓ I didn't want to take a beginner class. I want to take something more advanced. both the screenwriting course and the short story course, you had to submit a piece of writing to get in. So luckily I had my my laptop with me and I think I had a portable printer. I use my friend's printer and I printed out a screenplay I had written in film school. Printed a short story that I had written as well. I drove over to UCLA campus.

dropped off an envelope with the stories and everything that nothing was online at the time. And then went back, caught the ex-girlfriend and we drove back to Vancouver. And that was it. I didn't really think anything of it. We get back to Vancouver and I walk into my apartment and there's two phone messages on my answering machine. And they're both from UCLA. And I got accepted into both those courses and they start in a week.

Martin P Prihoda (1:09:01)

Mm-hmm.

Wow.

Jason Jacobson (1:09:20)

I'm like, okay, I pack everything up and I drive right back down to LA and I sleep on the floor of my friend's place in LA. And another girl that I had gone to film school with is living with her and she is working as a producer's assistant at 20th Century Fox. And one of the assistants that she's working with just got another job.

Martin P Prihoda (1:09:31)

Okay.

Jason Jacobson (1:09:49)

and is leaving, she's going to take her job. She's been asked to find someone to replace her. So she says, you'd be great. It's reading screenplays, doing screenplay coverage, working with the producers on coming up with ideas for different projects. How would you like to go in for an interview for that? said, yes. So I went in, went for an interview. The producers gave me a bunch of screenplays. said, they showed me how to do coverage. had never done coverage before. Coverage is like, well, you read a screenplay and you write.

Martin P Prihoda (1:10:05)

Right.

Okay, you kind of great you great it. Like you great it like

Jason Jacobson (1:10:20)

your thoughts on it pretty much. And then you give it to the producer and

the producer looks at the coverage, they don't read the script. If they like the coverage, then they'll read the script. that it takes the work off the producer. if you're struggling screenwriting or trying to break into LA, you got to befriend the assistants, not the producers, because the assistants are the gateway to the producers. ⁓

I go in for the interview, gives me some scripts. I go home that weekend. I do the coverage. I go back in on Monday and the producer says, what'd you think of these scripts? I said, they weren't that great. Here's your coverage. I wasn't impressed by any of the writing. I thought it was terrible. And the producer says to me, we just optioned all those scripts. We're trying to make them into movies right now. I'm like, ⁓ I kind of fucked that up. He says, but you know what? I like your honesty. I like everything. I like how you were upfront with me that you just, told me the truth and you didn't try to.

kiss her ass, can you start right away? And I'm like, yes. And I was an intern to start with, so they weren't paying me. was Canadian, so I was under the table when they did start paying me. But within a week of being in LA, I was working at 20th Century Fox. I had a pass, car pass, I drive onto the lot. I was going to UCLA, taking screenwriting and writing courses. And I was living in the Hollywood Hills on a floor.

Martin P Prihoda (1:11:37)

Cheers.

Jason Jacobson (1:11:45)

That all happened because I decided to go to a Grateful Dead concert that I didn't have any interest in seeing. And so that's what I mean by tangents. That's what I mean about these little, little tiny specks of opportunities that you don't take because you don't think they mean anything. They could mean everything. And that...

Martin P Prihoda (1:12:06)

Right. It kind of mirrors

it kind of mirrors that film Yes Man by Jim Carrey, with Jim Carrey. You know, he has to say yes everything. it's same sort of thing. He's like this guy that's just in the doldrums and he's kind of lives his boring life. And then ⁓ he takes this he takes like one of these self help courses, I think like ⁓ some guru he takes his guru, this guru kind of like puts a spell on him. And he's like, you have to say yes to everything. So now he says like, he meets like

Jason Jacobson (1:12:12)

Yeah, what happens in that?

All right.

Martin P Prihoda (1:12:35)

Zooey Deschanel's character and everything that he's asked to do, he has to say yes. You know, like, let's go to this, do you want to go to this party? Yes. Like, do you know, do it. And it's these ridiculous things and it takes him off on all these tangents just because he has to say yes to everything. Yes, man. Yeah. Say yes.

Jason Jacobson (1:12:50)

Yeah, it's actually a great perspective of life of like, you know,

say yes, you know, because you never know it's fun. It sounds sad in this day and age. But like, I remember in my first year at university, a bunch of us dorm guys decided that it was going to be a goal of us every day. One of us had to get a girl's phone number. You know, and.

Martin P Prihoda (1:13:14)

Right.

Jason Jacobson (1:13:16)

It was kind of a stupid game, but it forced us to go up to girls that we would never talk to, to get their phone numbers because there was a challenge there. And I'm pretty sure I made some friends with some females that I would not have made if I didn't do that little challenge. And, know, it's kind of, you know, setting these little challenges for yourself every day. Can you get you out of that? Those doldrums like maybe to go a day where you say yes to everything, maybe go a day where you

Martin P Prihoda (1:13:24)

Right.

Jason Jacobson (1:13:46)

you go and you okay, today I'm gonna, I'm gonna message 10 people on LinkedIn, or I'm today I'm gonna go and for the next seven days, I'm going to post every day on social media, like those kinds of things just to take you out of your day to day activities, get those brain synapses firing in different directions that they're not used to. And you don't know what will come of that. And

Martin P Prihoda (1:14:09)

Yeah, you're

gonna lose some followers, but you're gonna gain others. So basically, your following will just align more to your own truth. But yeah, I know what you're saying. You don't know how, you don't know how, yeah, just by saying yes, it's Exactly.

Jason Jacobson (1:14:12)

Yeah.

Thank you.

You're putting yourself out there. That's

just that one step. I'm not just talking about social media. I'm just talking about life in general is taking concentrated steps to doing something different today that you don't usually do. That's it. It could be anything.

Martin P Prihoda (1:14:32)

Life.

Are

you but are you doing this with a vision and a goal in mind that you're working towards? No. So then how do know where you're going?

Jason Jacobson (1:14:48)

No, no, I'm just talking about if right now you feel

uncomfortable in your day to day or you feel comfortable in your day to day life and you need to get out of that comfort zone and you don't know how and you don't you don't you don't actually have a goal of what where you where you want to be or what you're going to do want to do next then just take a small step make make a decision today that you would not usually make. That's it.

Martin P Prihoda (1:15:01)

Okay, so that is the goal.

Hmm.

I like that.

Jason Jacobson (1:15:17)

Because

that one little decision might lead to other decisions or lead you on a road that you would not have usually gone down that might bring that next great idea or might bring that next person into your life that's going to make a difference.

Martin P Prihoda (1:15:37)

Right.

strategic instinct. Who is your audience? Who's it written for?

Jason Jacobson (1:15:45)

You know, when I, when I started writing it, I was thinking this is kind of for business people and entrepreneurs, but I think it's for everyone. It's for, it's for high school students coming out of school, going to university, trying to make those pivotal decisions that are going to be life-changing. said to my son the other day, I said, you know, up until this, my son's 17, he's, he's, he just got accepted to some universities. So, um, that was a huge moment. Uh, but like,

Martin P Prihoda (1:16:11)

That's great.

Jason Jacobson (1:16:14)

Up until this point of his life, every decision that's life changing for him has been made by his parents. You know, we went and lived in Paris for a year, which he was a great experience for him. That was a decision made by his parents. You know, there are certain camps that he went to. Right, there's certain camps that we sent him to decisions made by his parents, the school that he goes to decision made by his parents. He has never had to make a real decision in his life.

Martin P Prihoda (1:16:22)

course.

Yeah, well he's a minor, right? Like that's way it's gotta be.

Jason Jacobson (1:16:43)

that could change his life. I said to him other day, said, this decision about university, whether you go, whether you don't go, what university you go to, it's your decision, your decision only, and it will change your life. The university you go to is going to change how you learn. It's going to change who the people are that are in your life. It's going to change the environment you're in.

It's going to change everything. And from that moment on, you are going in this direction rather than this direction. So if you go to this university, you don't know what's going to happen there either. And you don't know what's going happen at this one. So you can't make a decision based on wondering what's going to happen. It's more just following your gut of what makes you feel most comfortable. Okay, I feel good with this decision. And then you accept it, you take it, but you realize that that decision

Martin P Prihoda (1:17:26)

Right.

Jason Jacobson (1:17:43)

is your first pivotal decision of your life.

Martin P Prihoda (1:17:45)

Right. But you also know that mom and dad have your back.

Jason Jacobson (1:17:48)

They do, but I'm not thinking back as supportive in a financial thing. I'm just thinking, this is your decision about who you're gonna meet in your life. What you're gonna study, everything, this is it. This is your first decision of your life. so with that, with regards to strategic instinct, it's targeted to them. It's targeted to someone in their mid-20s that is not.

able to find what they want to do with their cells in their lives that need some sort of help in rediscovering themselves. You've got people in their thirties that have been stuck in jobs that they're not happy with or aren't too sure about where they're going to go relationship wise. And they've got people that are in the middle age now, right now is really tough for people in their mid forties and fifties that are concerned about whether they're going to lose their jobs to AI and they need to

readapt and restructure their lives and figure out how they're going to move forward and they feel paralysis. Maybe this book will help them.

Figure out that next step, know here. So I'm just going to show it since I could be self promotional. This is strategic instinct where.

Martin P Prihoda (1:19:03)

Yeah, but there it is. Yep.

Actually, can I get a paper copy because I'm reading it on my phone and I don't like that as much.

Jason Jacobson (1:19:08)

Yeah, I'll send you a haircut.

Yeah, yeah, we're an hour and 20 minutes into this conversation. So if anybody stuck around that that half person that left.

Martin P Prihoda (1:19:17)

Yeah, I was I've

been I've been trying to keep them to an hour, but I just find that like, it's not until like 45 minutes that things get interesting. So I don't know, maybe maybe I just do a Jason Jacobson style edit and just like started at like 55 minutes and go to like an hour and five minutes. It's just a It's just a 10 minute podcast, right? I tell everybody that story. I love that story.

Jason Jacobson (1:19:30)

We should tell that story sometime. Maybe,

No one knows that on this podcast.

Martin P Prihoda (1:19:42)

Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter.

can keep guessing. It has to do with film and editing.

Jason Jacobson (1:19:47)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Martin P Prihoda (1:19:51)

⁓ Yeah. Well, this the stuff by the way, the stuff you're doing with AI and the whole human relationship with AI that one 300. Tonya loves it. She's like, Have you seen what Jason's doing? And I'm like, it's hilarious. One of those one of those one day in the next maybe 3040 days is going to go viral. If you just they're funny. Because I'm sure like the one the one that I commented on I was like, I think that already had like 10 shares or something.

Jason Jacobson (1:20:12)

okay. Let me just tell you.

I don't know which one you talked about, but like, you know.

Martin P Prihoda (1:20:21)

⁓ The

one it was, it was the one where there was three S's in a word and she's like, no, the S at the end isn't a real S. Glasses. I showed that to the whole family we howled. was like, that one I think already had like a bunch of shares, but I'm like, if you keep going with this tangent, this whole, this sort of shtick, I'd call it, the whole human versus AI, one of those is going to go like viral, dude.

Jason Jacobson (1:20:30)

Yeah, glasses, glasses. So

Martin P Prihoda (1:20:50)

hundreds of thousands of views, I think, because they're funny and it's topic.

Jason Jacobson (1:20:51)

You're wrong. Okay, you don't

realize what's happening. You're out of touch. You're out of touch, Martin. So this is, this is this is what happened is, and this will be my last thing for that for the conversation, because it's interesting, is I made this this pact with myself, that I was going to post video video content of myself, every day for a year, starting January 1, which was my birthday. ⁓

Martin P Prihoda (1:20:55)

Are they going viral? well, this was only like three days ago, so.

Yes, I know that. Yeah.

Happy birth.

Jason Jacobson (1:21:18)

and I'm posting across everything. I'm posting Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, some LinkedIn, but Instagram and TikTok and YouTube are the three main ones. So everything I'm making, I'm posting on three, all three. So for the first week, I was posting, you know, stuff from my book, like kind of like self help stuff, which I still post and still want to keep posting, because that's my knowledge base. And then about a week in, I

Martin P Prihoda (1:21:22)

TikTok.

Jason Jacobson (1:21:48)

I actually saw a video of someone doing an AI thing and I use AI every day and I'm very, I've become quite well versed in it, building apps and stuff like that. and you don't know how many times AI messes up and it's frustrating and it really bothers me. And I saw some other people making videos about how AI misses up and I thought I can do this. And so.

Martin P Prihoda (1:22:06)

yeah. Yeah.

Jason Jacobson (1:22:17)

The first video I made was me sitting at this computer I'm at right now saying that I want AI to help me create an app in 30 minutes. That's going to make me a million dollars. And then I start typing and doing this whole thing and it comes up with this app that's useless. And I put it up.

Martin P Prihoda (1:22:29)

I think that's all I wanted.

Right, something with

SAA, SAS or SAA, something as a service, right? What is What is SAS? Something as a service, right?

Jason Jacobson (1:22:41)

SASS, yeah, yeah, SASS, yeah.

You know what's funny you're saying that is I still don't know what SAS is. But yeah, it's something as a service. Here I am a business person and I don't know what SAS is because that's the whole sales pipeline of the world thing that I don't Yeah. And so anyway, I make that video. It gets like a thousand or two thousand views. Whereas my other videos were getting like five hundred or something like that.

Martin P Prihoda (1:22:58)

sales as a service. Yes, something like that. There's Yeah, anyway.

Yeah.

Jason Jacobson (1:23:12)

And so I think, okay, I'm to do something more funny because I want to bring my comedy into it. And so I do a video about. Committee I I ask AI to spell the word committee and how many teas are in committee and it can't get it right no matter what. And it's saying like there's three teas in the middle and or there's there's it just can't get it right.

Martin P Prihoda (1:23:31)

Really?

You're

not you're not pre programming it or prompting it to make mistakes and so that this ⁓

Jason Jacobson (1:23:42)

No, it's it's 100 % live.

I'm improvising on the moment. I know it's going to make the mistake I made. I tested it beforehand, but when I actually film it, it's live like I'm not editing it. I make this video. I go to bed late at night. I went to bed at like 1 o'clock in the morning. I posted at 1 o'clock in the morning. I wake up in the morning and it's got like. 20,000 views, which is huge for me. And it's got like 1000.

Martin P Prihoda (1:23:46)

Okay.

Okay.

Yeah.

Jason Jacobson (1:24:11)

likes or something like that. And I'm like, it's gone viral. I showed to my son he's like, wow, this is this is great. I dropped him off at school. By the time I pick him up at school, it's got 400,000 views. It's got like 30,000 likes. 10,000 comments. It's gone insane. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, the glad no, I did something else next.

Martin P Prihoda (1:24:13)

So yeah, it's gone viral. Yeah.

400,000?

I haven't seen this community one. I've seen the glasses, the glasses you did next, right?

Jason Jacobson (1:24:41)

But anyway, right now it's at like 1.1 1.2 million likes. My followers start to my followers start to go from Instagram, Instagram.

Martin P Prihoda (1:24:49)

So this is on Instagram, this is on TikTok, what?

It went viral on Instagram, okay. And so how many followers did you get out of this?

Jason Jacobson (1:24:58)

So I had like 500 modest, 500 followers when I started within two days, I had gone up a thousand. was at 1500 and now I think I'm almost at 3000. And so I posted another AI video. It doesn't do as well, but it does like, I think the glasses one does 200,000. I do a few other ones that have done like a couple hundred thousand views. And I started thinking to myself, no.

Martin P Prihoda (1:25:12)

Holy s-

Jason Jacobson (1:25:26)

I don't want to become Mr. AI guy. I'm going to get caught in this rut. I don't want to. I'm not here to make AI videos. don't want I don't want people. OK, then I start playing games in my own head. I'm judging myself. I don't want people thinking, oh, this is this is he's a one trick pony. All he's going to do is AI videos and all this kind of stuff. And so then I go and post back to one of my regular videos where I just do like a.

Martin P Prihoda (1:25:34)

I don't know man, I think, I think, oh that dude.

Yeah. Yes, I'll help.

Jason Jacobson (1:25:54)

like a self

help kind of thing. I don't know what it was. It gets 1000 views. And I'm like, that dopamine thing is gone. Like, okay, back to AI. You know,

Martin P Prihoda (1:26:05)

Everyone wants

to hear the truth. Everybody wants the fun stuff.

Jason Jacobson (1:26:08)

Yeah, so I'm right now at a crossroads. I'm I'm where we are. We're we're at 20. What's the date today? 22nd. I'm 22 posts in in the month. I'm kind of bouncing back and forth between different ones and trying to figure out what works and what doesn't work. And I'm thinking maybe I just keep doing the AI thing to build my followers. And then tap into those followers with my strategic instinct later on.

Martin P Prihoda (1:26:20)

Yep. Good for you.

Jason Jacobson (1:26:36)

so that I have much more of a following that I can get in touch with. So I think that's where my head space is at. But you you start battling with yourself. I battle with myself every day.

Martin P Prihoda (1:26:45)

You've accomplished something that is very difficult to amass that kind of those that you've you've captured virality. Like that's what everybody wants to do. That's what you that's why people hire agencies. That's why people to become viral, you've managed to do it through your own comedy. That's like

Jason Jacobson (1:26:59)

Right, but then

you feel like you're chasing, now you're chasing it. Now you think, okay, I gotta do that again. Yeah, yeah.

Martin P Prihoda (1:27:05)

Okay, well, then it's like a drug, right? But

I mean, what's your look your goal is just supposed your goal is supposed 365 days of the year, your goal wasn't to go viral, your goal wasn't to impress anybody. So just keep going with your goal.

Jason Jacobson (1:27:19)

Yeah, and that's the goal. so ⁓ anyway, very interesting.

Martin P Prihoda (1:27:21)

That's the goal. And I think you should come,

I think you and Michelle and the kids should come out to Salt Spring at some point. Come hang out with us. could try some of my kombucha that I make.

Jason Jacobson (1:27:28)

You know, we used to go out there quite a bit. We.

yeah, we used to come out to Salt Spring a bit and. We almost bought a house there too, but we didn't. I wish we had.

Martin P Prihoda (1:27:38)

I don't know. I'm not 100 % sold on it yet. But I'm getting there. It's kind of like a bit of a vortex of like, sucks you in here. You're sucked in. It's the fairies man. You can't leave. It's tough, man. It's fun. That's that's for another podcast episode. But I'm like, what am gonna do here?

Jason Jacobson (1:27:40)

Anyway.

Yeah, yeah, you can't leave. Yeah. Yeah.

Martin P Prihoda (1:28:00)

⁓ so I was like, okay, well, I like, I, when I, when I came back from India, like I came, we came back on a high, like I was like one of the top 10 photographers, advertising photographers in the country COVID hit. was like, I got money. ⁓ I've worked, I'm just going to come back to Canada and like, you know, be comfortable. So that's been three years and now I'm just like, I'm tired of being comfortable. I've got it. Like I got to do something. So I'm just like,

Jason Jacobson (1:28:23)

Yeah. You had the hair cutting

thing too.

Martin P Prihoda (1:28:27)

yeah, yeah, we have the barbershop that's still running in Goa. It's actually like, it's the most highly, most highly reviewed barbershop in Goa. But I'm not there to manage it. I've got partners and stuff. And I'm looking to offload all the India stuff. I think that's done.

Jason Jacobson (1:28:42)

Yeah, yeah.

Martin P Prihoda (1:28:44)

And then I had interests in Dubai as well that I've let go of. I'm just like, I just want to be based here. Because I to fly every six months back to Dubai for my residency. And then I was taking a toll on my health. I was like a 15 hour flight and it was like, took me 10 days on either end to get over the jet lag. I was like, I don't want to do this anymore. So I just want to be here and I'd love to get back into filmmaking. I've got a couple of ideas for, for like, you know, some like Netflix style shows, but

Jason Jacobson (1:28:54)

⁓ OK, yeah.

Yeah, that's crazy.

Martin P Prihoda (1:29:14)

I don't know right now this is accessible to me. I've got a microphone and podcast and I'm just setting up the signal.

So, and I think I'm gonna lost you there, Jason. I'm still here. Yeah, but well, I'll edit all that shit out. Nobody needs to hear it. Yeah, nobody needs to hear it. can edit that out. So, I guess the last thing I was gonna ask is I just really wanna talk to you about the book was just what are the top three takeaways that you'd say that you would love for people to have from your book? Like, if somebody could take away three things, what would you want them to take away from strategic instinct?

Jason Jacobson (1:29:25)

Yeah, I'm trying not to say anything when you break up.

I think the big thing is that it's called strategic instinct, but it's trusting your instinct, being able to realize that what you're feeling inside is there for a reason. It's there because you've lived the experiences of your life are innate within you. So when something occurs around you and you feel this instinct or impulse to act a certain way, it's not because it's

some off the wall response is because you have built this experience inside your system. And that experience is saying deep down inside you, yes, follow this instinct. So when that happens, you need to follow it. You need to listen to your gut really. And I feel that a lot of people don't do that. They force it down inside them and they never accept that that instinct means something.

Martin P Prihoda (1:30:51)

So trust your gut is one,

Jason Jacobson (1:30:53)

trusting your gut. ⁓

Martin P Prihoda (1:30:53)

two, courage.

Jason Jacobson (1:30:56)

The other thing is the comfort zone is is is being willing and to go outside your comfort zone, which means like we just talked about being a yes man for the day or walking up to that that significant other person that you see at Starbucks or whatever and at and saying something to them, you know, or or like I said about making a post or something doing something.

that you don't usually do to bring yourself out of your comfort zone. That's the beginning of following your gut really, because that leads to other opportunities that will trigger that instinct. Yeah.

Martin P Prihoda (1:31:35)

I love it.

Mm hmm.

And and when you feel the fear, welling up inside, observe the fear. Feel it in your body, move through it and do it anyway.

Jason Jacobson (1:31:53)

Yeah, well, I guess my third thing is that.

Martin P Prihoda (1:31:55)

Fear is the fear is the big one that stops people right?

Jason Jacobson (1:31:58)

Right. Well, I guess my third thing is that we all have an inner battle. You know, I always think I don't think a lot of people these days remember Flintstones, but I remember Fred Flintstone would always have the devil Flintstone on one shoulder and the Flintstone on the other or whatever. And they battle him and you'd see him. can't make a decision because they're both coming at him from both sides. I think that's how most of us feel on a daily basis is that there's this inner battle in our head of what we should be doing next.

And you have to push through that. And I said this before, put those blinders on and move forward one step at a time and not worry about that battle because we all have it. I have it. You have it. The top experts out there that are preaching that they know it all. Trust me, they battle every day with whether they're making the right decisions or not. So you're not alone. You're not alone. That's a human mind and you just got to learn how to manage it.

Martin P Prihoda (1:32:58)

So trust your gut, get out of your comfort zone, push through your battles.

Jason Jacobson (1:33:03)

Hey, you got it, buddy. Yeah. Yeah, great talking to you too.

Martin P Prihoda (1:33:04)

I love it. It was great talking to you, Jason, and big love to the kids

and to Michelle. I haven't seen Michelle in ages, so give her a huge hug from me. And I will send you a version of this before I publish it. So I don't think there's anything in it you want removed. Maybe there is, but I think I'm just going to remove ums and ahs and a few little, try to speed things up a bit because we're at an hour and a half and it'd be great to get it down to an hour, but that might be tough. But there's a lot of pre-out.

Jason Jacobson (1:33:12)

Yeah, absolutely.

I wouldn't have skid.

Martin P Prihoda (1:33:32)

I can take a lot of myself out my stories and stuff. It's really about you.

Jason Jacobson (1:33:34)

Well, I was gonna

say, just cut yourself out and we'll be good.

Martin P Prihoda (1:33:41)

Maybe I should send you the raw file and let you do that. I don't think, if I think if I gave it to you, I don't think I would even appear on this. It would just be you. Maybe a headshot of me.

Jason Jacobson (1:33:45)

What?

You

Martin P Prihoda (1:33:55)

All right, well, you know what? We're leaving the experience with you laughing, which is great. And you know what? You're a dear friend, and I hope to see you live soon, So say hi to everybody.

Jason Jacobson (1:34:00)

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you very much. I appreciate you inviting me on this.

And it's been a great experience and I enjoyed it. And ⁓ yeah, best of luck with this podcast. I hope it gets out there to people.

Martin P Prihoda (1:34:15)

Yeah. Yeah. Well, if you're going viral, plug in that link. I will. I will. All right, brother. Talk to you soon. Goodbye.

Jason Jacobson (1:34:21)

yeah, yeah, semi-clips.

Okay, bye.

Martin P Prihoda (00:01)

Welcome to the Odyssey and Alchemy, a space to explore the journey inward and the transformation that unfolds from it. I'm your host, Martin Prihoda, and my hope is that these conversations help light the path towards wholeness, connection, and a deeper sense of shared humanity as we navigate this fast-changing exponential age together. Here, you'll hear from inspiring voices in the physical, mental, and spiritual wellbeing space, people who are helping shape a more mindful and meaningful future.

If you enjoy what you hear, please like, subscribe and share. I'm so glad you're here. Let's dive in.

Martin P Prihoda (00:33)

Welcome to the Odyssey Alchemy podcast.

Martin P Prihoda (00:53)

everybody. Welcome back to the Odyssey and the Alchemy. We've got Will Blunderfield on the show today. And Will is a Vancouver-based yogi, musician, and pioneer in mens rewilding who blends Kundalini yoga, sexual kung fu, and mindfulness to help people harness their life force energy. With a psychology degree from UBC and certifications from masters like Mantak Chia and Gabor Mate, Will guides transformative workshops on semen retention,

naked yoga and primal healing. Perfect for our deep dive into spirituality, psychology and wellness. Signed to network records, he's also a charting artist whose mantra music has topped the world charts and featured on shows like Your Mom's House. Will, so great to you on the show.

Will (01:36)

Hey.

You as well, brother.

Martin P Prihoda (01:39)

fascinating stuff you're doing with rewilding and specifically, men's health and, ⁓ you know, I think deepening a man's relationship to himself has definitely not been part of the centuries-old patriarchy. you know, I think we're really starting to see a change. Now, what's motivated you to do this kind of work?

Will (02:02)

Well, I was teaching like lululemon-y yoga, like stretchy, sweaty pants yoga, hot yoga for a long time. When I first met you, that's what I was doing. I was an ambassador for lululemon. I realized you can stretch and, you know, look cool and have your eyeliner on. And like I was doing all these things and that was fun. But if you've got sexual issues to work on, none of that's going to address that at all, really. And so I discovered sexual Kung Fu actually on Pornhub.

In 2012, I was like surfing Pornhub and I typed in Tantra, men's Tantra, and the senior universal healing Tao teacher named Lauren Johnson, who's kind of just under Montauk, in terms of the structure of that lineage. He was teaching naked and I started to follow along and I started to get kind of insecure. I was like, what if my neighbors see me shaking my cock around? I was like, I really still do have a lot of body shame to work on. So I started studying psychology and sexuality at UBC and

between classes, I'd go down to rec beach and get naked and just start getting more and more comfortable with my body. And now I teach sexual kung fu quite a lot, actually way more than Kundalini yoga and, and the sort of the stretchy stretchy yoga, they all have their place, but there's something really powerful, I think about helping men reconnect to their cocks and balls in this Aquarian age.

Martin P Prihoda (03:18)

Right.

Well, the fascinating thing is I first stumbled onto Montauk ⁓ and his book, The Multi-Orgasmic Male, I was probably in my mid-20s and really just discovering the whole idea of the microcosmic orbit and channeling energy and the Kundalini energy. then, so by the time I was ⁓ starting to practice yoga, I became really interested in this idea of cycling.

Will (03:33)

Nice. ⁓

Martin P Prihoda (03:53)

⁓ energy up the microcosmic world. So I've known about and have been practicing semen retention for the better part of 20, 30 years, 25 years probably, not always successfully. It's hard sometimes you need to release. But ⁓ what are your experiences with the power of semen retention?

Will (03:54)

Yes.

It's hard sometimes. ⁓

I realize in my life I'll always be an addict. So for me, it's about subbing bad addictions with good addictions. And so I call it my three S's like super foods, like goji berries, ⁓ semen retention, and sexual kung fu, which just means basically sexual transmutation. Kung fu just means daily practice. So for me, it's like, ⁓ these are healthier ways to get high. I call it getting high on your own supply.

rather than doing coke and alcohol. Like I had a run-in from like 2013 to 16 where I was like doing coke. Actually a hot yoga student introduced me to coke behind the Biltmore Cabaret. And I remember he's he's like, you're going to love this. And he like took a key out and like I snorted it. I was like, oh my God, this is amazing. But thankfully I was able to get out of that using Kundalini yoga and sexual Kung Fu and kind of just subbing out those bad addictions that don't support life in the long run.

with addictions like holding in my seed. And it's not about never ejaculating. It's just about learning how to transmute it and maybe ejaculating like twice a month for most dudes. The Tao says is kind of a good amount. Yeah.

Martin P Prihoda (05:24)

Right,

that's correct. And, ⁓ you know, I think for a lot of men, the bisexual energy just stays in the lower three chakras, right? It just, there's this incredible energy force in the balls and the testicles. And then unless you train at sexual kung fu, the only release is out through the penis, which is a real depletion of chi. So ⁓ the transmutation part is, having...

Will (05:45)

Yeah.

Martin P Prihoda (05:52)

having orgasmic effects without actually ejaculating is, it was a very foreign concept, I think, for men. Because it goes against, it goes against all sexual teachings, which for most men is just porn. And all porn ends with an ejaculation. And so that's, you know, that's how, that's kind of how we, as men, were raised to think about sex, is that it's kind of this race to the finish.

Will (05:56)

Yes.

totally is actually in the matrix.

Totally. And usually really quickly.

Totally.

Martin P Prihoda (06:22)

But

when you can practice sexual transmutation with a partner that also is of that same thinking, then really like the sexual experience becomes a spiritual experience.

Will (06:37)

Totally. It's beautiful. it, have you heard of like yab yum? I'm sure you have the practice where like one partner sits on top of the other. And then you bring the energy up your spines and you can do it penetratively or not. There's just so many ways that you can be intimate with another that don't involve like just wham bam. Thank you ma'am. Ma'am quickly ejaculating. So it's just fun to have more tools and colors in your sexual paint brush palette to work with. It just makes life more juicy.

Martin P Prihoda (06:47)

Yes.

Yeah. And there's this, I found that with my partner, my wife, it's that there's this, ⁓ know, if you retain the seed and like allow her to have an orgasm, but you retain your own seed and it just changes the entire dynamic of the day as well because you're not depleted. And there's so much, especially as you get older, there's just so much depletion that you feel afterwards, right? It just feels like you've kind of just, this chi has just flowed out of you.

Will (07:25)

Totally.

Yeah, takes the body so much energy.

Martin P Prihoda (07:35)

And you know, that's how we lose

our men, we lose our chi through ejaculation. Women lose their chi through menstruation, childbirth. ⁓ So the idea of keeping your life force and your energy and channeling that ⁓ to the creative powers is amazing. And you've like, you're a pioneer of this stuff. And you talk about it all online. And that's why I was just, got to get Will on this because I read about this stuff and I think about it and...

Will (07:43)

Mm-hmm.

Thank you.

Martin P Prihoda (08:03)

And a lot of the times you just keep it to yourself, right? Because you're like, this is so out there for a lot of people. But you're, I have to really applaud your courage, Will. It really, it's really inspiring the, you know, the stuff you're putting out there. And even, you know, a lot of the comments you get are just like, not very kind, And it is very polarizing. So that's how I think you know you're on the right path.

Will (08:11)

thank you.

Yeah, it's like very polarizing.

I think so. And I've always been

very polarizing, you know, just being myself seems to be polarizing for people. And so I think it's like accepting that and realizing that I'm just here to teach what I need, because then it will resonate with the millions of knees out there. That's what I got from Terry McBride, actually, the CEO of network records, Terry McLaughlin manager, I'm sure you've met him. So yeah, for sure. Right. So he, he was the one who was like, yeah, just, I just created a label of music that I really like and

Martin P Prihoda (08:48)

Yeah. Yeah. yeah.

Will (08:59)

then it will resonate with the millions of me's out there. And I was like, I like that.

You know, cool.

Martin P Prihoda (09:04)

I was the same way with photography.

I like it, there's gonna be a thousand other people out there that like it.

Will (09:13)

Exactly, or more. Yeah.

Martin P Prihoda (09:15)

or more, you know, a hundred thousand, whatever. And it, and it worked. You just need the courage to trust.

Will (09:17)

Yeah.

Totally, and it's like other people's opinions are not my business. What I choose is my business. And I'm here to share things that have helped me, what I call escape the matrix or start to get out of the matrix. And ⁓ have you read the book, Iron John by Robert Bly or heard of that?

Martin P Prihoda (09:40)

No.

Will (09:42)

so Iron John, he talks about the domination system of Robert Bly, who wrote Iron John, which is like a famous men's workbook. ⁓ And so he talks about this invisible nutrition that gets shared between men when they gather and do these types of rituals. And he talks about like certain tribes in Papua New Guinea. And he doesn't really go into like what rituals they're doing. But if you look it up, it's actually pretty extreme and gender genitally focused.

And that got me interested in like studying the Spartans and the ancient Polynesians and the Pictish warriors who would go into battle naked in Northern Scotland and certain stone circles and rituals that may have happened and how they're digging up cock statues in Northern Scotland and Norway. And there's just all this kind of penile, genitally focused stuff from history that gets buried. Even like in the Bible, it said Abraham's servant cupped his loins. He cupped his balls in agreement.

And then they changed it to, put his hand on his thigh. But like the Hebrew word that was initially named means like cupping the loins. So there was so much that's been lost on modern men in terms of male bonding ⁓ that involves connecting through what I call the testiculum, like the pelvic consciousness. It's kind of this earthy like ball tingling sensation that you can allow when you're with your bestest bros that really connects you in.

⁓ You don't even have to do any sort of sexual or touching thing. You can just play like shirtless ultimate frisbee and you can start to feel this kind of male bonding, not only through the high heart, but through the cock and balls. And that's very grounding. Like people always say, grow a pair of balls, but nobody says how to do it. It's like, focus on your nuts with your bros, steel sharp and steel, and don't go into gay panic. Cause gay panic releases estrogen and fear and cortisol and adrenaline. Yet if you can just say, I am shameless, I'm fearless.

I am doubtless and really enjoy being naked with your bros at rec beach for example, then your balls are going to swell and you're going to start to feel that oxytocin and that testosterone and that serotonin and that dopamine rather than all of these fear-based hormones that the matrix wants us to feel.

Martin P Prihoda (11:52)

Right, so gay panic really probably just stems from the fear of losing an identity or ⁓ just a questioning of one's identity, right? That's the thing about identity and ego is that it ⁓ just seeks its own survival, right? So the more, and really that is the beautiful practice of meditation and yoga is to... ⁓

Will (12:03)

Holy

Yes.

Martin P Prihoda (12:17)

start to dissolve the relationship between the witnessing self and the ego self, right? So, and relinquish fear that way. Yeah, that's fascinating. In your opinion, why do you think there seems to be this feminization of men over the last generation or two? It really seems that you can see the testosterone levels are dropping, I think, chronically.

Will (12:24)

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Mm Yeah, I think

by 1 % every year since the 1980s when they started measuring it.

Martin P Prihoda (12:49)

What's going on?

Will (12:51)

I think there's Xenoestrogens in the water. There's also birth control pill runoff in a lot of municipal water supply, especially in Florida, because they're so close to sea level. There's a book called Estrogeneration that talks about this. So there's like a chemical sort of castration happening. A lot of plastics and stuff, they seem to affect male fetuses more than female fetuses. ⁓ They measure the anal genital distance, the space between the scrotum and the anus in

boys whose mothers were exposed to high levels of pesticides, for example, which are also very feminizing. And it's very, very short, which means that they've basically been emasculated to some degree. So if it's doing that to our balls and our bodies, what are these chemicals doing to our psyches? Because it's all connected. So I think that's a big piece. There's also the gay panic and this kind of like desire to make everybody the same and to depolarize men and women.

and just make everybody kind of like eunuchs, like asexual eunuchs. ⁓ Even like, for example, if you were to get a penicillin shot, there's not just penicillin in there, there's like certain methyl parabens and things that are maybe preservatives, but unfortunately, the downside is they're also very emasculating on the hormone system for men especially.

Martin P Prihoda (14:12)

That's interesting. had my first podcast guest here on the island was a not is a naturopathic doctor and we talked a lot about microplastics. And he yeah, no, I had asked him I said if there's one sort of negative thing you can remove from society, what would it be and he first without hesitation, he's had plastics like microplastics. Yeah.

Will (14:19)

Hmm. Yeah. And they found like microplastic balls in the ball sack of every person they found that they've studied.

Really? Yeah,

it just seems to be so pervasive and plastics in the ocean. I was doing a little bit of research on pine pollen yesterday and apparently it can bind to things like plastics and pesticides and you pee them out. nice, what brand do you like? Baste. Okay cool. I'll have to...

Martin P Prihoda (14:50)

I take bipolar every day. Baste. I take base pine pollen,

I take three, ⁓ I take basically a tablespoon. ⁓ And I also from them, I also take a substance called Shilajit, which is, which is a resin. So I take pine pollen and then there's a ⁓ testosterone matrix ⁓ that I've actually run out of that I need to take.

Will (15:01)

Okay.

yeah, I was gonna talk about Shilajit, yeah.

Okay, cool.

Martin P Prihoda (15:20)

And then I was also taking gonadot, I'm have to insert the name of this, gonadropin. It's not testosterone replacement therapy, but it just, it stimulates the gland that sends the signal to the testicles to generate. I've got a picture of it somewhere. My naturopathic doctor ⁓ wrote me a prescription for it. You have to inject it. But it was, yeah.

Will (15:27)

good at it.

Okay.

you injected, okay.

Martin P Prihoda (15:47)

Yeah, but it was very between that. that's, know, just, being my age is trying to keep my testosterone and then my testosterone levels up. But really that like sleep and exercise like, so, you know, three, four times a week, getting your heart rate up, ⁓ just, and lift, just lift, lift heavy shit, lifting heavy stuff. It doesn't, you know, you don't have to look like a roid monkey, but just, know, keeping your muscles, like keeping everything tone, keeping your body tone mind.

Will (16:04)

Yes, right.

Martin P Prihoda (16:14)

And you know, mind body spirit as a yogi, you know, it's like, the body is just the outermost extension of the mind, right? From from subtle to gross. So we access then then the ancient sages knew that it was very difficult to access the mind through the mind. So they're like, here's asan practice, you know, let's access the mind through the body. Observe the body, you observe the mind observe the sensations in the body observe the mind. So that's really Yeah, so and it's kind of a sneaky way.

Will (16:22)

Totally.

Hmm.

Totally.

I love that.

Martin P Prihoda (16:44)

Right? Like, because you know, like, I was mid 20s, I got into yoga to meet women. Right?

Will (16:44)

You

Martin P Prihoda (16:53)

And, and then I ended up just I ended up, ⁓ well, I met my, I met my, wife through yoga, but I ended up going, holy smokes, like, this is working on me like medicine, like, you know, I'm holding, I'm holding these warrior poses and

Will (16:53)

Right,

Yes.

Martin P Prihoda (17:09)

I'm just focusing on the sensation and then the sensation is changing. It's transient. There's this transience and I don't have to, once I stop running away from it, I'm like focus on the pain in the hips. Just put your mind there, put your awareness there. Don't run away from it. And so it's the same thing with the mind, right? I'm feeling angry. Okay, don't run away that. let's observe it. Let's put our mind there and watch how it manifests in the body.

Will (17:31)

I that. Have you into breath work at all?

Martin P Prihoda (17:32)

Yeah, oh yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'll, like, Transcendental Breathing and, you know, some of, Transcendental, I was doing that in a workshop, like, 25 years ago before anybody knew who Wim Hof was.

Will (17:38)

Nice.

cool.

Martin P Prihoda (17:48)

And just then, you know, alternate nostril breathing, sympathetic parasympathetic nervous system stuff. Box breathing. Yeah. I mean, the breath is the breath is the key.

Will (17:51)

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Totally. Yeah, I found that really powerful just doing like conscious connected breathing like breath wave style. Like Robin Clements just like lie on the ground and just be like for like 45 minutes and it can be so so healing. Just like yoga. Apparently, you know that book autobiography of a yogi by Swami Nithyananda, Paramahansa Nithyananda. I guess like in one of the chapters I was reading

Martin P Prihoda (18:13)

Yeah.

Will (18:23)

the initial yoga that like Jesus did according to him was just lying on the ground and breathing deeply and like recalibrating your cells. I thought that was really cool. ⁓ The poses are great too, but yeah.

Martin P Prihoda (18:32)

Right? Right? Yeah. And there's this there's an

amazing book called there's an there's a great book called Breathe. ⁓ I forget who the author was, but he talks about that, like, the five second exhale. The five second exhale really like it transcends so many different cultures and a lot of mantras are like their time like five seconds five, there's something about five seconds. like

Will (18:39)

Okay.

Okay.

Martin P Prihoda (18:56)

when you're doing the box breathing, inhale five seconds, hold five seconds, exhale five seconds. It's like, it really modulates that sympathetic parasympathetic nervous system. And what's incredible now is of course, is that we've got all these biometric wearables, right? Like I wear an aura ring and you know, I got a garment. Yeah. So just to track stuff, cause I just became really interested in heart rate variability and how my breathing can affect my stress levels. So it's just neat to be able to track it. ⁓

Will (19:06)

Mmm.

nice.

Mm-hmm. So cool, yeah.

Martin P Prihoda (19:26)

Will, tell me a little bit about your childhood. Where does all this come from? Where did you grow up? ⁓ Yeah, let's start from the beginning.

Will (19:32)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, for sure. I grew up in West Vancouver in Canada here. And I was really into singing from a young age. I was in the British Columbia Boys Choir. And I kind of grew up on like ⁓ &M's meat shops and McDonald's and stuff like that. That was just kind of just what was done in West Van in the 90s. Even though like my parents are in the medical field, there's this disconnect still between like what doctors learn.

about the body and then also like how they don't get any training in nutrition. I asked my dad who's a psychiatrist and to be a psychiatrist you have to first become a general practitioner. I was like how many hours of nutrition do you guys get? And he's like, that's a good point. We don't really get any. ⁓ So yeah, from a young age, like we didn't really know about nutrition even though my parents were medical people and everybody's just doing the best they can. I'm not bashing them, but.

I think that was very feminizing, like just eating lean cuisine, stoffers, macaroni and cheeses, like two servings before my choir practice and balls are just shrinking. I guess it helped with my soprano voice at the time. It was like, it was a form of like becoming a eunuch, like how they used to cut off the balls in ancient times so that they would have the high voices. I guess this is kind of like a chemical, a modern version of that. ⁓ So yeah, I kind of like always was really into performing and stuff and I was bullied a lot.

Martin P Prihoda (20:51)

Sure. Yeah.

Will (21:01)

as a kid, because I was always like performing at like assemblies and you know, I was just very, I remember this girl coming up to me in the hallway. She's like, your eyes. She's like, if you go like this, like you look like such a girl, you're, such a girl. And there was always this like fear of being effeminate. But then what I realized is like, some dudes are kind of like designed, maybe dharmically to be really good at being a man and really good at being a woman all the same time, like the two spirit idea of

of the shamans of certain ancient cultures. So I kind of really took an affinity to that. And I started to realize that even if you are a double soul shaman or two-spirit or whatever you want to call yourself, there's still as a war on your male polarity, whether you're more of a masculine presenting dude or more of a feminine or double soul shaman kind of thing. And so we all kind of like detox, I think is a really powerful word.

If the yogis had to detox 5,000 years ago, like in the half of yoga pradipika, they're talking about detoxification practices all the time, then I guess we kind of have to as well. And that kind of goes back to breath work because breathing and yoga, these are ways to detoxify every day. ⁓ I got, and meditation for sure. Yes, I love meditation. I love Kundalini yoga. Yeah. So I kind of just started to.

Martin P Prihoda (22:12)

Absolutely. Yeah. And meditation for me. Daily meditation.

Will (22:24)

Realize the better I feel in my body the less it really matters what other people think or say or do and so I think the practices of yoga and meditation and breath work I just started to really delve into Do you know Ian Finn? I'm sure you do. Oh Oh, that's awesome. He's amazing. He was one of my first Cool, yeah, so he was one of my first yoga teachers in 2008 and

Martin P Prihoda (22:41)

Yeah. Yeah. I've just messaged him last week. He's going to come on. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I've known, I've known him for years. Yeah. Yeah.

Will (22:54)

He said, in order to be happy, we need three things as humans, nature, community, and silence. And those are things that I didn't really have very much of growing up. We had the nature for sure in West Van, so I'm grateful for that. But a meditation practice, I think, is what was missing. And it's really great to see. I was checking out my ⁓ high school that I used to go to, and now they have meditation and yoga classes for the kids.

Martin P Prihoda (23:22)

Fantastic.

Will (23:22)

So

it's really great to see that that's being implemented into the system. Yeah.

Martin P Prihoda (23:26)

Yeah. Yeah. I think it's, ⁓ you know, I think it's just so imperative, especially if you're a healer

or, I mean, a therapist, right? Like, it's amazing you talk to people that, like, you know, that are therapists or somebody that's going to a therapist and I always ask, well, do they have a mindfulness meditation practice? And sometimes they're like, no, like, they never, I'm like, wow, like, how do you be a therapist without some sort of meditation mindfulness practice of your own?

Will (23:47)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, true that.

Martin P Prihoda (23:57)

And

it's also amazing how many Western-based therapists have never read the seminal works of the East, like the Bhagavad Gita or the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali. mean, these are texts that have been, there are seminal texts on human psychology that are like 2000 years old that were just like cognitive behavioral therapy. Well, that's in the Sutras, like reframing and creating space around the witnessing self.

Will (24:05)

Yes.

Martin P Prihoda (24:24)

This has been around for thousands of years and we're just sort of like, we're calling it different names and you know, there's reframing and CBT, but at the end of the day, it's just sitting and creating space in your mind so that you can witness and observe that you are not the experience, you are the witness of the experience. You are not the anger, you are the witness of the anger, you're the observer of the anger. you know, that's the Jiva Atman, the Atman, the...

Will (24:26)

Yes.

Okay.

I believe.

Yes.

Martin P Prihoda (24:51)

personalized consciousness within that is our true essence that is observing everything that's happening in life

Will (24:51)

I like that. And I like, ⁓

And I like the idea of like things like semen retention and these good daily habits that keep us in our highest, that keep our glands healthy and secreting in a beautiful way. It like, all you really want to do is like make out with people and meditate and write poetry when you're in that state. ⁓ I think a lot of people just don't have the glandular juice to want to sit in meditation. And I think that's a really beautiful piece of

Martin P Prihoda (24:57)

Okay.

Right.

Will (25:23)

of Montauk Chia's work is like focusing on your balls and breathing into them and meditating kind of makes meditation a lot more fun and then you want to do it more often. Whereas if you're just, you know, pretending you don't have a vagina or a penis and you're always just very prim and proper, it's kind of becomes a little bit disconnected from from your life force and your loins. And then maybe in my experience, I don't really want to meditate as much when I'm trying to be so prim and proper. But if I can grow

Martin P Prihoda (25:51)

yeah.

Will (25:52)

growl and get kind of primal and allow my balls to plump up, then I love meditating.

Martin P Prihoda (25:57)

yeah. If you put your

you put your attention down there. It's like, you know, like in Vipassana, we do the you do the body scanning, right. And when you get down to your groin, you've it's just so psychosomatic. It's just it's just amazing the thoughts we think how they just manifest in the body and especially sexually, right. Because it's just like so powerful down there. Yeah. So, you know,

Will (26:15)

Yes, it's so powerful.

Totally.

Martin P Prihoda (26:24)

Yeah. So what are you working on now? Like what's next up for wealth?

Will (26:30)

I teach voice lessons. ⁓ I like to perform naked. Because like growing up, I always wanted to be a singer and I thought I had to be like very prim and proper and like nobody could ever discover that, you know, I like dudes and like just all these things from the matrix that were like plaguing me. And so just so grateful now that I can just fully be myself. And like I performed at the Vogue theater last year naked. The theater was like, no, you must wear

Martin P Prihoda (26:34)

Okay.

Will (27:00)

you know, something on your genitalia. And I was like, okay, like, so I wore like a cock sock kind of like the red hot chili peppers did. But then I had a wardrobe malfunction halfway through my set. But nobody cared like.

Martin P Prihoda (27:07)

Sure, yeah, that's great.

Did you get a good response from the crowd?

Will (27:18)

Yeah, some people are like, my God. And then I like, it was so funny because I didn't realize like, do know Danielle Laporte?

Martin P Prihoda (27:25)

No.

Will (27:27)

Okay, so she's a spiritual author here in Vancouver as well. ⁓ And I like have all her books and stuff. And like, right when my cock sock fell off, I didn't realize she was like right in the front row with her son. But she loved it. She like filmed it. And it was was funny because I was singing like Hallelujah by Leonard Cohen, like playing piano like naked. It was it was really fun.

Martin P Prihoda (27:48)

nice. It's amazing how horrified

we still become by the penis, isn't it, in a society? what's the deal?

Will (27:54)

Yes, people are so, yeah. I think it's

so powerful. Like anything that's really, really good for you, like looking at your bro's cock without shame, The Matrix makes it seem like the worst thing in the world. And anything that's like really, really bad for you, ⁓ like we don't even need to get into that. There's so many things that are promoted, even like violence in movies. For example, like the movie 300, you know, that Spartan movie.

I remember seeing like all the blood and the gore on all the bus stop ads for the movie. Yet now Zack Snyder, the director, he was on Joe Rogan a few months ago and he's like, yeah, like it turns out they actually bonded and they like made love with each other and yeah, they had female wives, but ⁓ they also really love to just like cuddle and like bond. So they would be more apt to protect each other on the battlefield. ⁓ So there are, there's all this stuff that was like taken out of our society. And I think the fear of the penis.

Martin P Prihoda (28:20)

Mm-hmm.

Will (28:49)

is a really great way to keep men disconnected from the place in their bodies that makes them the most wild and free, so then you don't have to put a literal cage around them. If you can make them feel shame, like for example, circumcision, that's a huge way that The Matrix, right at the get-go, literally cuts men off from their power center and traumatizes them sexually.

Martin P Prihoda (29:02)

Great.

fascinating the and that is such a triggering I think you know, I've seen you post on that and even discussions I have around circumcision. It's such a triggering thing because it's so it's so built into tradition. And there's no like, why are we doing this still in 2025? Why are we doing this to a human baby? That is so the original necessity which was which was because of infection is just no longer

Will (29:26)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Martin P Prihoda (29:42)

medically necessary, yet we're still doing it.

Will (29:45)

Yeah, yeah, maybe it was done with desert tribes who had access to little water. And so maybe there were certain infection risks of the foreskin. at the time, but it's like now we have showers, you know, and a lot of people don't realize that the foreskin is actually fused to the head of the penis until you're anywhere from age six to sometimes in your teens, it doesn't fully ⁓ detach. It's kind of like your fingernail.

And so they're not just cutting off the skin, they have to like stick utensils, knives between the mushroom head and the foreskin to kind of rip it off. ⁓ So it's very, it's actually a lot more violent and damaging than I think a lot of people realize. like I teach a lot of naked yoga and stuff. So I've seen a lot of penises and so many are like severely botched, but nobody ever talks about it because it's a shameful thing.

Martin P Prihoda (30:39)

⁓ So horrible and you know, if it's done, yeah, if it's botched, then you really like you're messing up that that human for a long life, right? Like for life, like you're really messing that person up. It's just it would feel it would feel it would fill me with such anger to know that that was done to me without my permission. And now I have to deal with it. Like it hurts when I get an erection or whatever. If that is the case for lot of men, right? It's it just seems like something that we should not have be doing anymore.

Will (30:48)

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, are you circumcised? that's good. That's actually rare for your generation. How old are you, can I ask? nice. 50 years old, you can kick, stretch and kick. Margin 50.

Martin P Prihoda (31:09)

No.

50.

No, dude, I'm 50,

brother. I turned, yeah, I turned 50 in August. I had a big party here on Salt Spring and ⁓ like, feel, I feel great for 50. Like, I'm in great shape. Yeah, like, got all my hair, you know, like.

Will (31:28)

⁓ nice.

Yeah, you look amazing. Totally. Yeah, you look great.

Yes, you you're thriving over on salt screen.

Martin P Prihoda (31:39)

Yeah, it's

just ⁓ a freaking number. anyway, ⁓ just before we get on to the 50 again, what was I gonna say? ⁓ Yeah, circumcision. I'm not because ⁓ my parents were ⁓ Czech refugees from or well, they're immigrants from Czechoslovakia. And it ⁓ just wasn't popular unless you were Jewish or Muslim. ⁓

Will (31:45)

Totally.

⁓ Circumcision.

Okay

Yes.

Martin P Prihoda (32:09)

just wasn't

it wasn't done. yeah, I'm not. I'm lucky. I was I was born in Burnaby. I'm sorry. I was born in Vancouver. I was born in Canada. Yeah. Yeah, my parents. I'm a first generation Canadian.

Will (32:12)

So were you born in

Okay cool.

I see.

Cool. Yeah, so you lucked out because at that time they were cutting everybody ⁓ in that generation. So that's great. cool.

Martin P Prihoda (32:30)

Yeah. My mom is also a physician. I think,

yeah, so she didn't, ⁓ yeah. And then my dad wasn't circumcised. So it's like that thing where it's, you know, my dad's circumcised, so my kid needs to be circumcised and my grandfather was circumcised. I'm sort of like, it's just... ⁓

Will (32:46)

Right.

Yeah, it's like a trauma pattern that gets repeated.

Martin P Prihoda (32:51)

What are the stats on

it? you know, or is it still happening like a lot?

Will (32:56)

Yeah, think it's happening.

30 to 40%, they're saying.

Martin P Prihoda (33:00)

Wow, it's almost half.

Will (33:02)

Yeah, and it's still like 60 % or something in the US and it depends on the state. ⁓ It's going down in Australia. It's not really done in the UK since World War II, which is great, ⁓ unless it's like a or a Jewish community. Yeah.

Yeah, it's crazy, but like people don't realize there's still extreme versions of circumcision that are still happening. So much so that the American government has had to put warnings about herpes. For example, in certain Orthodox Jewish communities in the state of New York, they literally suck the baby's penis to get the blood out after they cut it. ⁓

I think it's called mitzvah, mitzvah, bape or something. So there's all these crazy things happening to young boys and also girls in certain Muslim cultures. For example, they, they cut off the labia, the labial folds. Sometimes they'll sew up the entire vagina. ⁓ sometimes it's a ritual Nick of the clitoris. So whether you're a little boy or a little girl all throughout the world, there still are these crazy blood rituals happening on the genitals of little kids that

I think people just don't realize. And I just think that there's nothing wrong with a body modification, but it's gotta be done on an adult. Like it's gotta be done on somebody who can consent. And yeah, to me, it's such a basic issue of consent. And then to your point about the states, apart from the Jewish and Muslim communities, the reason why it's so common is because of this guy named Harvey Kellogg, who like created Kellogg's cornflakes. And...

he actually had this, yeah, he had this health center and he actually created the corn flakes to like prevent masturbation, like to lower the sex drive of the kids. And then he was like, all the kids should be circumcised if you find them masturbating, you you should put some carbolic acid on their clitoris if they're a female and you should circumcise the foreskin off if they're male. So it was really done in the US as this puritanical extension of Victorian times of like,

Don't touch yourself, otherwise we're gonna cut you.

Crazy, right?

Martin P Prihoda (35:14)

Unreal.

Yeah, I mean, got two, I have three kids, I have two sons, and ⁓ they were certainly spared that. Yeah, I can't even imagine, but are you from a Jewish ⁓ heritage or background?

Will (35:24)

That's good. Yeah.

No, and thankfully I have my foreskin because in 1985, the Canadian Medical Association decided that it was no longer necessary to routinely circumcise boys in Canada. And because my parents are medical people, they're like, okay, we're not going to do it. So I actually, my foreskin was saved by the fact that I was born in 1985 and 1984, I think.

Martin P Prihoda (35:54)

Good for you, man.

Will (35:56)

Yeah, so very, very fortunate there.

Martin P Prihoda (35:57)

That's cool.

We could call the podcast Forskins R Us.

Will (36:01)

Four skins

are us, exactly. But yeah, I know.

Martin P Prihoda (36:04)

It's nothing to joke about because

I know I have spoken to people that are that struggle with it and and that feel pain, you know, so it's unfortunate.

Will (36:10)

Holy

It's really, it's really crazy. And the reason why I speak up about it is because I've seen so many botched circumcisions. Like I was teaching a workshop in Hollywood and there was a guy who literally they accidentally cut off his entire mushroom head. It was just gone. And, nobody had ever coached him or given him any therapy for that. And he kind of like, I was talking about circumcision. came up to me. He's like, I think I have like some trauma around my circumcision.

It just gets so buried. And there's also this thing that can happen, skin bridges, where a piece of skin from the mushroom, from the glands, kind of makes a bridge somewhere along the shaft of the penis. So you could literally stick your fingers underneath. It's all like these elastic bands. Like it's just so obvious that the foreskin is supposed to just be left intact. And sometimes the metatarsal

Martin P Prihoda (36:52)

Yeah. Yeah.

alone. the amount of nerves,

amount of nerves and things and whatnot in the foreskin. they think you know, I guess they think it's just this, they think it's like this appendix that just doesn't need to be there anymore. But it's, yeah. Anyway.

Will (37:10)

Mm-hmm. It's crazy.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, they think it's

like a redundant thing, but really it's like designed to protect the head of the penis. there for like, it's like we're created in the likeness and image of God, but you've got to cut off your dick. It's like, this really makes sense for the religious argument, you know?

Martin P Prihoda (37:36)

Yeah, yeah, like, and like I said, I just, I've seen you post about it and just the violent triggering reactions you get at times. I'm just like, yeah, and it.

Will (37:46)

Yeah, people get, people are so

protective of their, of their sort of rituals and their trauma. And I get that. And at the same time, it's like, it's 2026. Like it's pretty obvious that we need to stop doing these things that make no sense. It's like, wait till you're 18. If you really want to get a circumcision or circumcise your child, let them become an adult and then they can choose.

Martin P Prihoda (37:53)

trauma.

Right.

Will (38:15)

Cause it's all for me, it's all about like the right to bodily autonomy. And, and that's just the core issue. I don't care if it's your religion or, religious freedom. It's like, well, maybe the baby doesn't want to be Jewish or Muslim, or maybe they want to be Jewish, but not have their foreskin cut off. Cause there's actually a large contingency, maybe not a large contingency, but there are a group of Jewish people who are like, no, we're not going to cut off the foreskin. That's wrong. And instead of doing a circumcision ritual,

Like my brother was invited to a, what's it called, a bris? And it was during the pandemic, so it was done on Zoom, but he had no idea what he was being invited to. One of his friends or his clients invited him to his son's bris, and then all of a sudden there's this like Mo-Hill cutting the dick of the baby on Zoom. My brother's like, what's happening? Like, it's just so obvious that.

Martin P Prihoda (38:48)

a bris yeah

Hmm.

⁓ and then just the screaming

of the baby and...

Will (39:13)

Yeah, and it's just so ingrained in so many cultures, but I think it's like, just because it's part of your religion doesn't mean you need to continue to propagate trauma. And yeah, I just keep talking about it, because I think a lot of people are ashamed to talk about it, and I get a lot of messages of hate, but also a lot of people who are like, thank you for speaking up. Finally, somebody's saying something. And I think that's the only way that we're gonna create change is by shining a light on.

things that are maybe not very life-giving for a man growing up. There's a book called Circumcision, The Hidden Trauma by Ronald L. Goldman. It's really good and it gets into the studies. there's a forward by one of my mentors, Dr. Christiane Northrup. And she is a board certified OBGYN and she used to perform circumcisions, but then she realized it was a horrible thing. And so now she speaks out against it. Yeah.

Martin P Prihoda (40:11)

Okay, so there is some awareness growing.

Will (40:11)

Yeah,

it's starting to grow. And it's no longer covered by MSP in Canada, which is great. So they don't do routine. Yeah, they make it expensive now. Now you have to have it done. Like you pay extra, you go private. So it's good. Things are changing. Yeah.

Martin P Prihoda (40:16)

Yeah.

Okay, yeah, so make it make it expensive.

Make it.

Tell me what it was like meeting Mantak because I've got his books and I've been reading him for a long time. You actually met him. You got a certification from him. That's amazing. He's a legend. ⁓

Will (40:40)

Mmm.

Yes.

He's so cool. He's like 85 and he's so full of life and you can tell he really practiced. He loves what he teaches. He teaches what he needs. ⁓ So that's a really great example, I think, of somebody who's walking their talk and really just sharing things that light them up. He's always like, know, my teacher told me to massage my nipple and, you know, do the red light and the healing light. And I say, I love this. It's so simple. I do it every day. You he just, you can tell he just loves what he teaches. ⁓

And so I was doing a lot of online stuff with him over the years. And I was like, you know what? He's getting older. He's not going to be touring as much. I should really like see him in person. And I was like at rec beach, like naked meditating last summer or two summers ago. And I just was like, ⁓ I wonder if he's teaching in England because my half my family now lives there. Maybe I could like do a family trip and also study with him.

Martin P Prihoda (41:44)

Right.

Will (41:48)

⁓ and sure enough, he was leading, ⁓ a workshop in downtown London near where my family lives. So I got to study and I actually emailed them saying, you know, I'm really excited and, know, just confirming the details and what have you. And one of his organizer people was like, could you teach for us? And I was like, what you want me to teach? She's like, yeah, just like, keep it really Montauk, Chia, you know, and maybe don't get naked. I was like, okay.

Martin P Prihoda (41:49)

Wow.

Will (42:17)

⁓ So that was really sweet to get to teach at his retreat and to meet him and give him a hug. Yeah, he's a really great guy.

Martin P Prihoda (42:28)

So, ⁓ well, like, let's say you've got somebody that's listening to this podcast that's in their mid-20s and they're really interested in this idea of transmutation of their sexual energy. they're, ⁓ I don't know, they've got sex addictions, maybe there's a porn addiction and they're looking kind of for a way out and they've discovered a bit of yoga. How would you guide a man like that?

that is interested in taking this tremendous energy, this power cell that's in our balls and transmuting it up into the higher planes and the higher chakras.

Will (43:03)

Mm-hmm.

I would say ⁓ head over to my online school, manhoodacademy.podio.com. You can also access it through just willblunderfield.ca. And I have some free stuff there as well as some paid courses. I've got this thing called testicle breathing guide. And just start to learn how to like breathe into your balls. it's really sexual transmutation is actually very simple. It's three steps. Step one, what does my vitality feel like in my balls right now?

Martin P Prihoda (43:13)

Hey.

Will (43:39)

Step two, smile into that feeling, turning it into joy. Step three, breathe some of it into the rest of your body. Squeezing your anus, sex organ, navel point. It's really that simple. And so I just give, I'm here to just give men permission to, in a very primal juicy way, focus on their balls because chi flows where the mind goes. And ⁓ you know, I was the fat little choir boy disconnected from my balls.

Now I can feel my balls, life is just so much funner when you can actually feel your cock and balls and let that fuel, for example, your workout. know, bringing the energy from your left testicle, we call them the water wheels, to your left bicep. You know, and doing like a bicep curl, like using your sexual energy as leverage for energy in your life.

Yeah, so testicle breathing, think is look, yeah, testicle breathing and microcosmic orbit as you were talking about, those are two very powerful practices that you can start with and you'll start to feel so much better that you'll start to, you know, wanna learn more things. And I teach a Sunday class, sexual kung fu on Sundays on Zoom, ⁓ all the information's at willblunderfield.ca and I'm doing more more live stuff. Like when 2020 happened, I shut, I put everything online, but I was teaching.

Martin P Prihoda (44:29)

Awesome,

Will (44:57)

like naked men, sexual kung fu, and it was all dudes. It wasn't just like dudes who identify as gay. It was old, young, gay, straight, whatever. Even guys from like my Brazilian jiu-jitsu class would come, you know? So it was really, really great to just get primal and get naked. And, you know, ancient Greece, the athletes would always work out naked. The actors were always naked. The dudes were always seeing tons and tons of other naked men. And that was to inspire them and to bond.

Martin P Prihoda (45:10)

Nice.

Will (45:27)

And I think modern men are missing out that there's this kind of prim and proper energy, ⁓ a puritanical remnant into the Victorian times that's kind of still plaguing North America. Whereas in Europe, they're totally fine with the naked body in many cultures, like in Germany and in Munich, they've got the English gardens in the center of the city and you can be naked there, for example. So I think we're just, we're very kind of conservative about the body in North America. And I think that

needs to change.

Martin P Prihoda (45:58)

Yeah, there's this puritanical ⁓ element, especially to American culture. And it's so funny because it's like war, like worship violence, but like detest nudity. Like it's so funny, isn't it movies? Yeah.

Will (46:03)

Mm-hmm.

Yes,

totally. And then that gets reflected by, you know, the guys from Surrey taking their pickup truck down to Davie Street and like punching gay guys. Because, you know, studies have shown that the most homophobic guys are actually the gayest. They've done studies with penile plethysmography at certain universities in the States and they have guys hook their cocks up to these elastic bands that are connected to this monitoring device.

Martin P Prihoda (46:26)

Right.

Will (46:43)

and they have them watch gay porn. And the ones who have the biggest directions tend to be the most homophobic when they fill out a homophobia questionnaire after. And they're the ones who tend to deny that they got aroused the most, obviously. So I think this promulgation of like a glorification of violence between men has become the only socially acceptable way for men to get intimate, you know, to punch another man.

Martin P Prihoda (46:53)

Right.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Will (47:10)

when really

what your soul wants to do is like, hug him. ⁓ And then also there's like lot of hooking up even in the gay culture, hooking up when really I think a lot of men are just looking for a deeper sense of platonic comfort first. Whether you're gay or straight or whatever, I think there's this sense of platonic comfort and male bonding that all men are in, in our society.

Martin P Prihoda (47:37)

Yeah.

When you see people out in the world, how you can really and just how they act and just you just see the relationship they have with themselves. You can see who's at war with themselves, right? Like anybody that would treat another human being like that and punch them because they're different or they're gay. just like you're at such war with yourself because if you had a deep connection to yourself and.

Will (47:47)

Yes.

Martin P Prihoda (47:59)

you came from a place of deep self-love and compassion and at least the acknowledgement that you're working on this stuff, then it would be almost impossible to treat another person like that.

Will (48:07)

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Martin P Prihoda (48:11)

But the fact is that you're in ignorance and you're so wrapped up in the ego mind and this, I, this identity of what youth that is just basically like, I always think of our identities and our ego as like, you know, those rubber band balls, you know, and it just rubber bands wrapped around each other, wrapped around each other. And it's just like these samskaras and these karmas that are just wrapping around, you know, and then they just create this ball of like identity and ⁓

Will (48:25)

Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Martin P Prihoda (48:40)

Unless you can start, unless you start to cut those rubber bands and start to detangle all of that, you're just going to be living through, so you're be living from the trauma. You're gonna be living from this stuff. You're not going to be living through it. The only way out of all this stuff is through it. ⁓ And I just think people that treat other people like that are just at such war with themselves.

Will (48:56)

Yes, you feel it, feel it to heal it.

Mm hmm. Totally. Yeah, you can only really give that what you're cultivating towards yourself. For sure.

Martin P Prihoda (49:11)

Yeah, yeah.

And then you meet people that have suffered trauma, like all of us have, but they're working through it. Well, that comes through there because as you excavate deeper into self, there's a natural moral code that comes out that is rooted in compassion. It's not a social moral code, right? You're not acting out of ways out of fear of repercussions from society. it's like, no, like,

I'm discovering this relationship with myself, self love, gratitude for self. And that becomes the conduit for your relationship, all other relationships in your life. So it's like this moral code that just is in you, this goodness that, ⁓ that becomes your, that's almost supersedes the moral code of society, which is, I don't know, like the moral code of society is just like, it's fear based, right? Like don't do this because you know that

Will (49:50)

Totally.

Mm-hmm.

Martin P Prihoda (50:09)

So then people are acting in ways just not to get into trouble, but they're not acting in ways that are, you know, from the soul or from the spirit or from this intrinsic goodness.

Will (50:18)

Mm-hmm. Amen to everything you just

Martin P Prihoda (50:20)

So it's

Will (50:21)

said.

Martin P Prihoda (50:21)

interesting.

That's why, you know, this podcast, what I'm trying to do with this podcast is really facilitate dialogue for people that are on this path. And like, you you're not alone. Like these are the different things, whether it's, you know, financial health or mental health, spiritual health, you know, it's, this is really about the path to wholeness. It's the path to integration and coherence of self. That's the only way that's, I don't see any other purpose to life, but is, self-actualization. What else is there?

Will (50:43)

Mm-hmm.

I

Exactly. ⁓ I'm fucking boring. It's so boring. Yeah.

Martin P Prihoda (50:50)

What are you gonna chase money for the rest of your life? Like, what are you gonna like, get as rich as I can, I'm gonna get as rich as I can. Okay. Right. And then what like, yeah,

but it's but that's what we just worship that right? We worship like, you know, putting the physical body on this pedestal and putting like financial status on a pedestal, right? Not understanding that the physical body is really the greatest tool we have for self actualization just by observation of the body. And so

Will (51:10)

Mm-hmm.

I love

that.

Martin P Prihoda (51:19)

Yeah, it's just, it's fascinating. So I think like you, what you're doing, and that's what inspires me and what I'm doing with this podcast is really just being the signal in the noise, right? We're just signal. That's all we're doing is sending out signal. And ⁓ that's kind of like ⁓ a good life mission. I think it's a good purpose to have is to be the signal.

Will (51:29)

Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

I like that. Be the signal. Be the signal.

Martin P Prihoda (51:42)

Yeah. Be the signal right? Like,

yeah, you're just like, we're just, we're just sending out frequencies. So right, there's so much noise out there. There's so much distraction. There's so much AI slop. Now there's you don't know what's real. So just being the signal and just sending out the truth and sending out this, you know, it's almost like you're AI proofing yourself by going deeper, like, what is the solution to AI slop? Become more human.

Will (51:47)

Beautiful.

Martin P Prihoda (52:10)

How do you become more human? Excavate deeper into self. You know, and don't stop at the bedrock of religion, like keep going, keep going down. Some people just stop, right? They're like, okay, I've hit the bedrock of doctrine, right? ⁓ But if you just keep excavating, you're like, holy shit, there's another 15,000 layers to me. I don't know. That's how I think about it. It just doesn't end the way, like, you know.

Will (52:13)

Yes.

Totally.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, totally. It's limitless. love that, Mm-hmm. Yeah,

it's...

Martin P Prihoda (52:41)

And that's, know,

Jesus Christ, the Buddha, Lao Tzu. I mean, these are all just hyper self-actualized people, really. That's all they are. They're just, you know, Christ was much more than his Judaism, right? You know, Lao Tzu was much more than just his Chinese background, right? Like he was self-actualized beyond.

the identity, the identities. Right. So it's like movement beyond identity.

Will (53:12)

Yes.

And we're all here to be happy and to shine and to go deeper and to have that Jesus-like energy. And that's what I love about the Aquarian Age. Like the Kundalini Yogis talk about the Piscean Age where it was like you had to look up to your guru and obey and the information was kept secret. Like even Montauk Jesus' teachings, he brought all this to the West, but it was very esoteric and secret. Only the emperors had access to it for thousands of years.

And now that we're in the Aquarian age, it's a lighter age. Apparently it's not the lightest, but it's lighter than the Piscean age. And we're here to share information and we're all here to feel that Jesus energy within ourselves and to create like a brotherhood. It's like the, know, the ⁓ Beatles song, what's his name? John Lennon song, you know, a brotherhood of man. That's what we're here to do now. And there's this type of fish called the African cichlid.

Martin P Prihoda (54:05)

Right. Yeah.

Okay.

Will (54:14)

and they fight for, the male fishes will fight for dominance and the winning male's balls will bulge and it gets to fuck all the female fish and the losing male's balls will shrivel up to the point where it becomes totally impotent and can't impregnate any of the females. And I think in the Piscean age that was happening between men and we're still in a cusp phase. So people are still kind of acting like this where there's like this fighting going on and

Martin P Prihoda (54:24)

Nice.

Will (54:42)

on a glandular level, you know, our ball sacks are not as plump and healthy as they could be. And so I like the idea that instead of fighting for dominance, we're creating this brotherhood where we all feel safe in our bodies and we're allowing the good hormones to flow from our nuts to fuel our mission and our purpose and to feel that Jesus energy within our entire bodies and let that light expand out into the world. Like the penis in Sanskrit is called lingam.

which means pillar of life. So we're, know, instead of like shriveling up our dicks and balls and fear and excessive masturbation, we're like learning how to transmute our seed and let our cocks and balls just hang like fucking stags and minotaurs and, you know, connecting through that testiculum web so that we're not competing, you know? I call it dearmoring or like dropping gay and straight and black and white and even bisexual.

Martin P Prihoda (55:12)

Right? That's right.

Will (55:40)

and just stepping into more glandular health and manhood together. Cause there's so much competition between men in the matrix and way too much comparison on the back of that. And so these practices are really dearmoring and you know, when you're naked with a bunch of dudes and you're not judging and you're just like realizing we're all just human, it really does lower competition and that sort of fear between men. And I get the dudes to like hug in my workshops and we say, we don't want to hug like a teepee.

Martin P Prihoda (56:07)

Nice.

Will (56:09)

with our dicks far away from each other, we wanna hug peepee to peepee. And when you hug another dude or another person, I think for more than 30 seconds, you get this nice dose of oxytocin, like a bonding hormone. And that's what the world needs right now. We need more bonding and like good hormones that are secreting, creating that peaceful vibration.

Martin P Prihoda (56:34)

Yeah. And it seems to be, it seems to be that women, ⁓ like, because my wife goes to a lot of women's circles and they get naked and it just seems, yeah, yeah, like here on Salt Spring and it just seems to me that that is more acceptable, like for women to get naked together and have those experiences than men to do that. Because there is this stigma around gayness. when women do it, it's not, there's not this gayness.

Will (56:43)

Nice. cool.

Yeah.

Totally, there's no.

Martin P Prihoda (57:04)

thing, right? It's just like women being witches or whatever, right? Whereas, whereas for dudes, it's like, this is a gay thing.

Will (57:05)

No.

Exactly.

Yeah, isn't it crazy? Have you seen that new show Heated Rivalry?

Martin P Prihoda (57:16)

No, I haven't. But I've seen some stuff online with some guys doing some funny, some memes around it.

Will (57:18)

You heard of it?

Yes, yeah, so it's like soup. It's the most popular show right now on TV and it's about like hockey players who fall in love and how they had to kind of like hide it, but then it ended up being accepted. And yeah, I just think that men in our culture are taught to induce themselves with fear hormones anytime there's any sort of attraction to another man. And it's not that you want to have full on sex with another man, but I mean,

most dudes I think would enjoy feeling comfortable in the locker room with their bros naked, ⁓ you know, and hugging like and cuddling, you know, like, I just keep thinking about all these different warrior cultures where yes, they had female wives, but they would also like be naked together and like, slap their nuts like there's certain ⁓ indigenous tribes on the west coast of British Columbia, ⁓ like in New Shatlet and like Nootka Island.

where they would like get naked and then they would like hit each other with branches in the cold water to get all revved up for the whale hunt. Right. So so there's like an erotic kind of bro bonding element, but it's not full on sex. ⁓ And I think a lot of dudes really would like to experience that. And there is this shaming of any sort of erotic platonic male bonding in our culture that women don't experience as much of.

Martin P Prihoda (58:27)

Wow.

Will (58:49)

I don't know if that's because of the male gaze. A lot of dudes like to sort of see lesbian action or they fantasize about that. ⁓ But things are changing. Heated rivalry is a lot of dudes are secretly watching that and hopefully that'll instill a sense of it. It's a really good show. It's really well written.

Martin P Prihoda (59:03)

Okay, I'll have to check that out. I haven't seen it yet.

Yeah, I wish I had more time to watch TV. just between between three kids and all their stuff. And ⁓ it's just tough, right? Like, that's why you know, even even the timing of ⁓ like this like five hour block where I can do these podcasts. So I appreciate you coming on. Well, yeah, you don't have any kids that you know of, you don't have any kids. ⁓

Will (59:17)

I can only imagine, yeah.

Right.

my part. I don't not that I know.

Yeah, no, I, I don't have any children. I'll though I have like nieces and nephews. And I enjoy being the uncle. But yes, they're they're definitely they can be a handful, but very rewarding. I remember like the Lululemon ads, you know, in the mid 2000s used to be children are the orgasm of life. You don't know. ⁓

Martin P Prihoda (59:38)

Yeah.

I was just talking about that quote

on the bags, yeah.

Will (59:54)

Okay, cool. Yeah, like you don't know how amazing it is to have kids until you've actually had them.

Martin P Prihoda (59:58)

Yeah,

was like, thank Thanks. Thanks, Chip. Thanks,

Will (1:00:02)

Yeah, totally. Right. Yeah.

So I applied to all parents because, you know, I see my three younger brothers with their kids and it's a big job, but it's a rewarding job. ⁓ But I'm glad I don't have my own right now, although it would be rewarding, but I really feel like my path is to share these teachings and kind of like the sexual kung fu lineage is, that's my baby, is to share that. That's my creation.

Martin P Prihoda (1:00:12)

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Will (1:00:31)

And I've had to do it in a creative way because of censorship and because of the matrix. They don't want this information getting out there. So I had like, I can't call it the penis on social media. Otherwise I get banned. I'm on my 10th Instagram and like my third YouTube channel. So I have to call it the hummus cannon. well, I don't have to, but.

Martin P Prihoda (1:00:36)

yeah.

Is that because

they're categorizing you into like porn and they're worried that it's like, what is it? What's their inappropriate content?

Will (1:00:59)

Well, yeah, like if I

They say

it's like a violation of their sexual standards. ⁓ But a lot of taunter teachers and anybody who talks about the loins, you know, this powerful center in our body often experiences censorship online because they think, it's like smut or it's porn. And sometimes the robot sensors will misinterpret something is it's really educational, but they're like, no, this is porn. ⁓ So I've had to kind of

Martin P Prihoda (1:01:17)

Okay.

Right?

Will (1:01:31)

the way I share my teachings online is I kind of do it in a almost a comedic way. I'm not trying to be funny, but I'll call it, you know, I'll call the vagina the clam. I'll call the penis the hummus cannon. And then like a lot of American comedians have kind of taken note of my work. And initially they're like, what the hell is this? This is so funny. But then like, when I actually do a more long form interview with them, like with Tom Segura, he's like, my God, this stuff makes sense. And now he's like really into it. ⁓

So yeah, you have to kind of be creative to get this work out. And that's kind of a tall order sometimes. So that's kind of my baby right now. Maybe I'll have real kids at some point, but right now sharing these technologies is my baby.

Martin P Prihoda (1:02:16)

So we, you know, this podcast might get flagged. We put it up on YouTube or whatever, but I don't care. Like, I think Spotify is probably fine with it. I think they're more concerned with copyright stuff. Yeah.

Will (1:02:19)

It could.

Thank you.

Yeah, Spotify is usually good.

Yeah, usually like any of the audio based platforms, they don't censor too much. ⁓ YouTube can be really bad for medical misinformation, but we haven't talked about anything like that. So we should be fine with that. ⁓ And then certain words like penis, some podcasters will blurt those out for YouTube. But I don't think it's a a

Martin P Prihoda (1:02:38)

Mm-hmm. Right.

Right.

Will (1:02:53)

yeah, I think people are curious. Enough people are sick and tired of being sick and tired and they want some solutions. And so, yeah.

Martin P Prihoda (1:02:58)

⁓ yeah. And the world's confusing

place. Now that's that's nothing I was gonna ask you is like, what is your vision? Like, what's your vision for what's where we're going? Like, and what are the challenges that we're facing now as men? heading into like 2026 and with AI is on everybody's minds, right? Like, what is your vision moving forward? How do we? How do we continue to grow and heal?

Will (1:03:18)

Mm-hmm.

Going back to Ian Finn, I remember him saying in our teacher training, he's like, you can't slay the dragon of society, but you can harness it and direct it in the way that you want. So things like AI we can use in creative ways to propagate higher frequencies and disseminate good information that's been suppressed. For example, I have a substack and I use AI to collaboratively write these essays.

on like bro bonding practices from all over the world that have been suppressed. ⁓ and it's amazing cause I can get references so quickly. have a degree in sexuality, but like, this is like such a far cry from like the little cards in the libraries that we have had to use in the nineties. It's just like in the snap of a finger, you can get all this information. So I just see like we're in this Aquarian age of sharing information and, ⁓ uncovering all these esoteric practices and the, like the meaning behind them.

so that we can have even more understanding and joy and a flowing of life force in our own bodies and between each other. Like even like the turban, for example, like we learned in Kundalini Yoga, it's not just a turban, it like keeps the bones in a certain place, you know, and it's a cotton, you know, using a natural fiber, it actually helps you meditate more effectively. ⁓ It can help you channel more sexual energy safely up into your third eye, for example. So there's all these kind of like hidden meanings and reasons.

why we do what we do that are coming to light in the Aquarian Age. So I just see more and more of a no more secrets. We're all sharing information and growing together and becoming the most healthy, happy, holy people that we can be together.

Martin P Prihoda (1:05:02)

Yeah. No, that's amazing.

Yeah. My wife, my wife, all three of our children were home births and ⁓ she went down to ⁓ study with Grimukh. ⁓ So she did like the CALSA way. So Grimukh was a huge inspiration for all three of all three of them first. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So when you come over to Salt Spring, you'll meet her. She's she's an amazing woman. ⁓ Yeah, yeah. I think she remembered like she she knows who you are.

Will (1:05:10)

Yeah.

nice.

yeah, she was my teacher. got to, yeah, got to study with her.

Okay. Yeah, I would love to meet her. Yeah.

Martin P Prihoda (1:05:38)

She definitely knows who you are, but I don't not sure if you guys have crossed paths. ⁓ But certainly, ⁓ certainly the access to information is there. ⁓ You know, there's no excuse really to ⁓ not educate yourself because there's so much information out there. You know, there's a lot of misinformation out there. But I think if you come from that place of authenticity and witnessing and just really you can discern the signal from the noise.

Will (1:05:43)

Okay, yeah.

Yeah, I was gonna say like, yeah, discernment, think it's called like Viveka in Sanskrit, having that discernment, easier to discern when we're feeling juicy in our bodies.

Martin P Prihoda (1:06:13)

Yeah, discernment.

We haven't even gone into drinking pee, which is, I know. Yeah. What do they call it in San What do they call it? Shivambu, right? Shivambu, yeah.

Will (1:06:21)

yeah, pee drinking!

Yeah, she Van Bu.

Juvambu. Yeah, it's a practice.

There's many different reasons why people ⁓ do it. Some people call it like the plasma ultrafiltrate of the kidneys. ⁓ When I was in India, I got this book called the half the yoga Pradipika and they talked about drinking your midstream, the first pee in the morning. I just do it because it makes me love myself more. It's this interesting experience I have where if I like just drink a bit of my pee,

I feel this sense of heightened self-approval and self-acceptance. ⁓ And sometimes it's just a homeopathic dose, just a little bit like that. And then other times I'll drink half a cup. ⁓ So for me, it's not like I don't do it every day or I don't have a certain way that I always do it. I know Troy Casey certified health net. One of my teachers, he will age his urine and then he rubs it on his skin. ⁓ There's a certain breathwork teacher who will age it and then shoot it up his butthole.

Martin P Prihoda (1:07:26)

Wow. Yeah, there's a woman here on Salt Spring that sells her fermented urine because of the stem cells.

Will (1:07:26)

as like a colonic

⁓

Wow. And do people drink it?

Martin P Prihoda (1:07:34)

Yeah.

People buy it. Yeah, they buy it. Yeah, they buy it. I mean, yeah, for your skin. My fitness coach, Joel, who I who I did a podcast with he's he does it. He swears by it. ⁓ Yeah. All kinds of stuff. Yeah, I've been ⁓ I actually I haven't done it yet. But you know, I'm definitely curious about it. ⁓ Right. I have I have my stack. I've been ⁓

Will (1:07:40)

Cool. Right.

Cool.

Okay. You try it.

Martin P Prihoda (1:08:04)

You know, I've got my, I've got my pine pollen, my Shilajit. And recently I've been taking methylene blue, which is, it's been great. It's been great. I've really felt like energy and like when I work out my oxygen consumption, maybe O2 max, I can feel it. so it, it, it, it, it facilitates the electron transfer, the mitochondria. So it's, that's been an interesting, that's kind of been interesting.

Will (1:08:10)

how's that for you?

Okay.

Martin P Prihoda (1:08:32)

thing to try. ⁓

Will (1:08:33)

Nice, and you just put it

under your tongue.

Martin P Prihoda (1:08:36)

No, I take droplets. And then I have a little dropper and then put it just put it into like some kombucha and drink it through a straw because it stains.

Will (1:08:47)

Okay.

Martin P Prihoda (1:08:48)

Yeah, it stains really bad. And you pee blue. It's like you're peeing pee. That's like peeing Windex. But I feel great. I feel great. ⁓ But it's an MAO inhibitor. you so I don't like you just don't want to micro dose like, you know, salicybin or LSD or anything like that you want to give yourself like 40. You can get there's there's just like a there's there's a danger of serotonin syndrome, right? So you just want to not mix it with other stuff.

Will (1:08:50)

Good to know. You don't want blue teeth.

shit. Wind XP, huh? ⁓

While you're on it. ⁓

OK.

Okay, good to know. Huh.

Martin P Prihoda (1:09:19)

Yeah, that's

just my experience with it.

I don't know, I'd try anything.

Will (1:09:25)

Nice,

man. I love it. I think that's great. Yeah, good to be open minded and see what works.

Martin P Prihoda (1:09:28)

⁓

yeah. But anyway, going back to the, going back to the P, like, do you find like energy increase? Because I did a bit of, it's just so funny. Like you, I do research on this stuff and what comes out of the mainstream press and the mainstream medical stuff is that it's like not effective and there's no science around it. so I guess, ⁓ you know, there's also no money to be made from it. So there probably isn't a lot of research, right?

Will (1:09:53)

Exactly.

Exactly. You can't patent a natural substance, so they're never going to study it because it's all predatory capitalism, the medical industrial complex. They have to isolate certain elements of a natural substance and then patent them. ⁓ For example, there is urea inside of urine and that is in certain, for example, like heel repair creams. So there are certain

uses in the mainstream that have been approved that work according.

Martin P Prihoda (1:10:25)

Well, isn't there

urea in a lot of skincare products?

Will (1:10:29)

Yeah,

like beauty facial products and like foot heel creams and what have you. totally.

Martin P Prihoda (1:10:31)

Yeah.

Yeah,

it's like it's it's a it's an antiseptic of sorts. think the soldiers used to pee on their wounds, right?

Will (1:10:42)

Yeah, yeah, totally. And I think the cow urine is still drunk as a medicinal in places like India. ⁓ So there's lots of lots of pee drinking all around the world still happening. I always just say like, try it and see how it makes you feel like, because they're never going to do, for example, like a study on like ball slapping. McLean's magazine just did a hit piece on me saying that I'm like promoting ball slapping at my men's retreats.

and that there's no scientific evidence. I'm like, well, obviously they're not gonna like study that, but it's like, there is scientific evidence for massage doing good things in the body. And you're basically just massaging your balls. So it's like, to me, it's pretty obvious that it can be beneficial as long as you're not like smacking the hell out of them. No, like tapping. Exactly. Yeah, you're massaging your balls. Yeah.

Martin P Prihoda (1:11:24)

Yeah, you're not you're not slapping them in a painful way, right? You're just kind of manipulating them and moving them. Yeah, tapping. I guess ⁓

the mainstream

Will (1:11:36)

I know, right? But I always feel like if the mainstream is criticizing you, you're probably doing something right. There's that quote, like, don't follow the herd, they are lost. ⁓ Like the BBC is going to be doing a hit piece on me coming up. And I'm aware that it's a hit piece. They've done one on me before, but people discover these practices through the hit pieces often.

Martin P Prihoda (1:11:49)

Yeah.

Right.

Will (1:12:03)

I'll get messages from being like, wow, like they tried to make you seem like this crazy anti-vaxxer ball slapper piss drinker, but I could see through it. like, I'm glad I discovered your work. Cause like now I do testicle breathing and I'm more connected to my balls. ⁓ isn't it interesting how they tried to like, make you seem like this crazy person, but this is how I found you. get messages like that a lot.

Martin P Prihoda (1:12:23)

But you're not

doing an interview with these people. They're just doing a hit piece on you, without your consent kind of thing.

Will (1:12:31)

It depends.

Like McLean's, yeah, that was just a hit piece. But often like the BBC thing, we're going to, I'm going to be sitting down with them and talking about the practices. Like CBC did it too. ⁓ last year they wanted to do this documentary on the Manosphere. And they're like, we're really interested in like what you teach. So they flew like a film crew out and they had Dr. Timothy Caulfield, who's like Canada's disinformation and misinformation expert.

Martin P Prihoda (1:12:49)

great.

Will (1:13:00)

⁓ so I knew it was gonna, I knew it was gonna be a hit piece, but I was happy to sit down with him in the forest naked and do breath work with him, you know, and like I drank my pee on camera and stuff and you know, it's very sensational for the, for the camera, but a lot of people will discover me through that. So yeah, a lot of the hit pieces are just done without my consent, but a lot of them are actually done with my consent and I'm happy to, to do that. Cause, cause a lot of people will discover these teachings through the hit pieces.

Martin P Prihoda (1:13:00)

Right? Okay.

Yeah. Yeah.

All press is good press kind of philosophy.

Will (1:13:33)

Yeah, yeah, I think so. And it's kind of fun because like the crew at first, they were very judgmental, for example, for the CBC piece. It was like eight dudes. ⁓ But then like the director came up to me he's like, you know, I actually see that you're genuine and you know, you really believe in this stuff. And, you know, even though it was a hit piece and they were they hired all these scientists to try to debunk everything I was saying. I felt like I planted a seed. ⁓

in some of those guys and also I think in some people in the audience. So yeah, I'm not saying everybody must slap their balls. Everybody must drink their pee. I'm just saying like these things have helped me try it. Be like Goldilocks. Don't go too crazy right away. Not too hard, not too easy. Just try it and see how it makes you feel. Be your own doctor. Yeah.

Martin P Prihoda (1:14:04)

Yeah. Yeah.

Sure.

Yeah. Well, the fact of the matter

as well is that the way I see it, dude, like dudes need help. We need help like dudes need help like out there in the atmosphere. You know, I think there's a lot of men that are struggling with identity with how fast technology is changing their role in the world. ⁓ There's this sort of hyper feminization going on.

Will (1:14:35)

Yeah.

Martin P Prihoda (1:14:48)

And so men are like, what is my role? Like, what is my role as a man? Like, because my grandfather told me it was this way, and then my dad told me it was this way. And, you know, there's the this is what we do. But those things don't seem to apply anymore. So now, like, how do I tap in to this deeper source? How do I tap into this authenticity that nobody in my family or generations has ever talked about? Because you don't just talk about your authenticity, you just like you're a man, and this is how you act and

You just you know, any shit you're going through just put it down deep inside. Don't let it like, you know, don't bother anybody with it like suffer in silence. And so now it's like, you know, suffering in silence, you know, that's it's you're like a pressure cooker, right? It's amazing. It's amazing. you know, when we were in India, ⁓ we had a you ever seen a pressure cooker accident? Like when I went to pressure cooker fails, because everybody in India still cooks with a pressure cooker when a pressure cooker fails, man.

Will (1:15:27)

us.

Totally.

No.

Martin P Prihoda (1:15:46)

you are scraping food off the ceiling for like weeks. And it's just like, you know, so they when they build the pressure cookers, they have release valves, right? So as the pressure builds, there's a release valve and you're releasing the pressure and you can cook according to that you're like, okay, for pressure releases every five minutes, I know that my rice is done or my or my China is done, right? But if that pressure release valve fails and the thing blows,

Will (1:15:49)

Jesus, I can only imagine.

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Martin P Prihoda (1:16:16)

it's a mess. And I think we're the same way as dudes, right? Like, what's your pressure release? So it's interesting. It's a mess. And you see, and you see, and you see, and you see guys like, you know, guys that come out of clubs, and they've had a bit too much to drink, and they're just under pressure. It just, it's, you know, you throw alcohol in the mix, right? And you just like, there's, you know,

Will (1:16:21)

Yeah. Yes. That's a really good analogy. Yeah. You have to have things that allow you to release.

Yeah, alcohol is the worst.

Martin P Prihoda (1:16:44)

If it wasn't so sad and dangerous, it'd be comical, but a lot of damage from that, releasing that way. You know, that's when you get into the stuff like the guys getting drunk and just going up and beating up gay dudes or just being violent. That's all just pressure and that's just all trauma that's been shoved down so deep.

Will (1:16:52)

Totally. Yeah, alcoholics makes so per-

Yeah. Yeah. Alcohol is the worst. It's, and it's so promoted. It's considered so like, ⁓ when you go to a party, you drink alcohol, but really it's like, it, believe it's kind of like in Chinese medicine, they use the alcohol to extract the, essence of the, of the plant. It's like, when you drink alcohol, it can kind of extract your essence. And then there's entered, there's room for demonic entities to come in and stuff. Like I'd think of like,

Martin P Prihoda (1:17:09)

So so ⁓ yeah, yeah, there's grief medicine. Yeah.

Will (1:17:37)

college hazing rituals or going to Davie Street and beating up the guys. So yeah, like alcohols, I almost got done in by alcohol and I'm grateful that I had my last drink May 3rd, 2020. Thank you, yeah.

Martin P Prihoda (1:17:50)

Good for you. Wow,

right around COVID. Yeah.

Will (1:17:54)

Yeah,

like I just, I drank all this alcohol one night and I was like, and I felt so shitty in the morning. I was all bloated and I was like, I need to stop this. This is going to get out of hand. So, ⁓ I did like the ultimate lifestyle transformation from Puriam, which is an American superfoods company. And I started to feel so good with the superfoods that I was like, this feels actually way better than drinking. ⁓ yeah.

Martin P Prihoda (1:18:16)

Totally. Yeah. Alcohol

is grief medicine, right?

Will (1:18:20)

Yes. Yeah, that's such a way to put it. Yeah.

Martin P Prihoda (1:18:24)

Yeah. Yeah, it's a it's but yeah, so, so, this, this idea that men, you know, we need, you know, men need that men just need the signal. I feel like, you know, men need to just listen to this kind of stuff. And they'd be like, well, the dudes are talking about this, you know, and it's cool to talk about this. And all right. So I'm glad, I'm glad, I'm glad to have you on the show. Well, I've got a bit of editing in turn. I got a bit of editing ahead of me with this one.

Will (1:18:26)

Yeah.

Yeah. ⁓

Thank you. Yeah, like being the permission. Yeah.

Martin P Prihoda (1:18:54)

let's put the intention out there for more podcasts. And let's put the intention out there for a potential workshop. ⁓

Will (1:19:00)

Yes, I'd love that.

Martin P Prihoda (1:19:02)

⁓ on Salt Spring maybe we do like a men's work. We get Ian Finn up, we get you, ⁓ you know, like I'll be part of it and ⁓ yeah, I think just get that men's circle thing going.

Will (1:19:08)

That'd be cool.

Yeah.

Why not?

That'd be really cool. And I think Salt Spring would be the perfect place. It's so pretty, yeah. Thanks, Martin. I really appreciate you.

Martin P Prihoda (1:19:19)

Yeah. it's so beautiful here.

All right, brother. Well, that's all.

Yeah, I appreciate you too.

All right, brother. Take care. That was great.

Will (1:19:29)

Perfect. Okay, that sounds good. Thank

you. So nice to connect. We'll see you soon. Thanks, Martin. Ciao.

Martin P Prihoda (1:19:35)

Yeah, buddy, we'll be in touch. Okay, see you Will. Take care, bye.

Bye.Description text goes here

Martin P Prihoda (00:01)

Welcome to the Odyssey and Alchemy, a space to explore the journey inward and the transformation that unfolds from it. I'm your host, Martin Prihoda, and my hope is that these conversations help light the path towards wholeness, connection, and a deeper sense of shared humanity as we navigate this fast-changing exponential age together. Here, you'll hear from inspiring voices in the physical, mental, and spiritual wellbeing space, people who are helping shape a more mindful and meaningful future.

If you enjoy what you hear, please like, subscribe and share. I'm so glad you're here. Let's dive in.

Martin P Prihoda (00:33)

Welcome to the Odyssey Alchemy podcast.

Martin P Prihoda (00:51)

Welcome back, my friends, to the Odyssey and the Alchemy podcast. I'm your host, Martin Brohoedah, and today we have a very special guest. He is a dear friend of mine. He kicks my butt in the gym. He is my fitness coach, but he is also an awakened yogi. He is the proprietor of awakened yoga. He's as strong as an ox, yet he has the heart of the gentlest angel.

He, to me, exhibits so many of the attributes of what I would refer to as positive masculinity. Gentleness, but strength, compassion, kindness, guidance, integrity, so many wonderful qualities and so many wonderful insights about life and wisdom. I just can't wait for you to meet him. So without further ado.

Joel Laforet.

martin p prihoda (01:47)

How are you, Joel? I'm doing well, my friend, doing well. we just did. So I asked you, was like, Joel, let's do this podcast. Right. And you were like, sure. But first we're going to hike up Mount Erskine with kettlebells. So we're doing this podcast just post hiking up Mount Erskine with kettlebells.

In-person participant 1 (01:47)

How are you, Joel? I'm doing well, my friend, doing well. we just did. So I asked you, was like, Joel, let's do this podcast. Right. And you were like, sure. But first we're going to hike up Mount Erskine with kettlebells. So we're doing this podcast just post hiking up Mount Erskine with kettlebells.

martin p prihoda (02:09)

And I think you had what a 45 pound and I had a 30 and it was about an hour up an hour down. No, not that an hour up and down. I think we just came on there. about 58 minutes according to my.

In-person participant 1 (02:09)

And I think you had what a 45 pound and I had a 30 and it was about an hour up an hour down. No, not that an hour up and down. I think we just came on there. about 58 minutes according to my.

martin p prihoda (02:22)

vehicle clock. Yeah. so talk a little bit about what

In-person participant 1 (02:22)

vehicle clock. Yeah. so talk a little bit about what

martin p prihoda (02:27)

You do and what and why you do it. Sure. Okay. What I do for money. Sure. What you do for money. do for money. Right on. Well, I have a, I'm a fitness coach and I've been in the health and fitness industry for 28 years. Now I started practicing as stronger yoga and teaching your stronger yoga. So when I was 19 years old and uh,

In-person participant 1 (02:27)

You do and what and why you do it. Sure. Okay. What I do for money. Sure. What you do for money. do for money. Right on. Well, I have a, I'm a fitness coach and I've been in the health and fitness industry for 28 years. Now I started practicing as stronger yoga and teaching your stronger yoga. So when I was 19 years old and uh,

martin p prihoda (02:53)

have always kind of had my hand in whether it's being an aerobics instructor or a personal trainer or a yoga teacher. I've always just been in the group fitness kind of business and private personal training lifestyle. I do it because it's, I was called to do it. It's my Dharma. I can't get away from it. Called by higher power. When did you first feel the calling?

In-person participant 1 (02:53)

have always kind of had my hand in whether it's being an aerobics instructor or a personal trainer or a yoga teacher. I've always just been in the group fitness kind of business and private personal training lifestyle. I do it because it's, I was called to do it. It's my Dharma. I can't get away from it. Called by higher power. When did you first feel the calling?

martin p prihoda (03:22)

Well, when I was, to start the current business I own, I was sitting in the sauna, I was praying, kind of looking for some direction, and God was like, open a gym. And I was like, no, I'm a yogi. Even though I always lifted weights, I just didn't identify as a weightlifter. I practiced yoga very seriously and ⁓ thought weights were for the meatheads.

In-person participant 1 (03:22)

Well, when I was, to start the current business I own, I was sitting in the sauna, I was praying, kind of looking for some direction, and God was like, open a gym. And I was like, no, I'm a yogi. Even though I always lifted weights, I just didn't identify as a weightlifter. I practiced yoga very seriously and ⁓ thought weights were for the meatheads.

Right. And so I kept on going into the sauna looking for wisdom and I was like, open a gym, open a gym. So finally I opened a gym in my garage and uh, that's the wisdom of the sauna. That's the wisdom. is the wisdom of the sauna is it's cause it's just hot in there and your brain just getting cooked up in the sauna. Well, there's no escape. You can't run from yourself in that sauna. You can't. Um, so

martin p prihoda (03:49)

Right. And so I kept on going into the sauna looking for wisdom and I was like, open a gym, open a gym. So finally I opened a gym in my garage and ⁓ that's the wisdom of the sauna. That's the wisdom. is the wisdom of the sauna is it's cause it's just hot in there and your brain just getting cooked up in the sauna. Well, there's no escape. You can't run from yourself in that sauna. You can't. so

So ⁓ you wanted, like what's interesting is that you went the yoga path as well, right? And so you were interested in strength training, but also the yoga component. So what drew you to the yoga? Well, originally when I was quite young, I was playing a lot of rugby and a lot of football and I kept getting injured in my shoulders. And I thought to myself, well,

In-person participant 1 (04:17)

So ⁓ you wanted, like what's interesting is that you went the yoga path as well, right? And so you were interested in strength training, but also the yoga component. So what drew you to the yoga? Well, originally when I was quite young, I was playing a lot of rugby and a lot of football and I kept getting injured in my shoulders. And I thought to myself, well,

martin p prihoda (04:43)

I'm tired of going to physiotherapy and I'd like to heal my shoulders and yoga was a new thing. And so I went and checked it out and started doing the Ashtanga yoga, which is probably the most intense style of yoga. So that suited my personality. And I also noticed my mobility increased, my range of movement increased, my pain levels decreased.

In-person participant 1 (04:43)

I'm tired of going to physiotherapy and I'd like to heal my shoulders and yoga was a new thing. And so I went and checked it out and started doing the Ashtanga yoga, which is probably the most intense style of yoga. So that suited my personality. And I also noticed my mobility increased, my range of movement increased, my pain levels decreased.

martin p prihoda (05:10)

What I really noticed was a new mindset my mind became calmer I became more steady as a person and I wasn't as ⁓ motivated to go and play rough guy sports right, so it's a more more like taking care of your body and ⁓

In-person participant 1 (05:10)

What I really noticed was a new mindset my mind became calmer I became more steady as a person and I wasn't as ⁓ motivated to go and play rough guy sports right, so it's a more more like taking care of your body and ⁓

martin p prihoda (05:32)

You were also going through some tough times in a relationship around that point. But before we get into that, what was your childhood like leading up to this physicality? Because were you active as a child? Did you play a lot of sports as All the time, all the time. I played rugby and football, hockey, basketball, volleyball, track, I surf.

In-person participant 1 (05:32)

You were also going through some tough times in a relationship around that point. But before we get into that, what was your childhood like leading up to this physicality? Because were you active as a child? Did you play a lot of sports as All the time, all the time. I played rugby and football, hockey, basketball, volleyball, track, I surf.

martin p prihoda (05:56)

and surfed. I snowboarded, skated, as in skateboarding. Just basically anything that was athletic I enjoyed doing. Okay, so you were not like a couch potato kid. You were out there, you were out there out like on the streets just skating and surfing when you could. Absolutely. I started surfing when I was 15, but I started playing soccer when I was about four and you know I was one of those kids who you just

In-person participant 1 (05:56)

and surfed. I snowboarded, skated, as in skateboarding. Just basically anything that was athletic I enjoyed doing. Okay, so you were not like a couch potato kid. You were out there, you were out there out like on the streets just skating and surfing when you could. Absolutely. I started surfing when I was 15, but I started playing soccer when I was about four and you know I was one of those kids who you just

martin p prihoda (06:24)

couldn't sit down in school. was always getting in trouble, whether I was getting the strap or getting kicked out of school or thrown in the corner or detention, whatever it might be. I just had way too much energy and sports seemed to be the avenue that I succeeded in. Right, right. And then you sort of hit your 20s and then life accelerated with, I think you had your first child? I had my first. Very early, right? Yeah, very early. I had my son, I was 21 years old. 21. 21. I couldn't imagine having a kid at 21.

In-person participant 1 (06:24)

couldn't sit down in school. was always getting in trouble, whether I was getting the strap or getting kicked out of school or throwing in the corner or detention, whatever it might be. I just had way too much energy and sports seemed to be the avenue that I succeeded in. Right, right. And then you sort of hit your 20s and then life accelerated with, I think you had your first child? I had my first. Very early, Yeah, very early. I had my son, I was 21 years old. 21. 21. I couldn't imagine having a kid at 21.

martin p prihoda (06:54)

I

In-person participant 1 (06:54)

I

was still such a kid at 21. I'm still a kid at 47, you know? What was that like having a child so early? Just out of your own childhood. You've just become a man and now you've got this new baby. Yeah, no, I wouldn't even say I was a man. I was just a puppy still. It was quite scary. I was very immature. I didn't even know who I was. I had no clue of...

martin p prihoda (06:55)

was still such a kid at 21. I'm still a kid at 47, you know? What was that like having a child so early? Just out of your own childhood. You've just become a man and now you've got this new baby. Yeah, no, I wouldn't even say I was a man. I was just a puppy still. It was quite scary. I was very immature. I didn't even know who I was. I had no clue of...

who the real Joel was. ⁓ It was a really quite a tough time for me in fact. Yeah. ⁓ And your relationship with the mom was also tough. That was also a different kind of workout. That was a different kind of workout. workout that really did help me to make the choice of what kind of man I wanted to be and what my reaction was going to be.

In-person participant 1 (07:23)

who the real Joel was. It was a really quite a tough time for me, in fact. Yeah. And your relationship with the mom was also tough. That was also a different kind of workout. That was a different kind of workout, a workout that really did help me to make the choice of what kind of man I wanted to be and what...

my reaction was going to be

to certain circumstances. It's one of my favorite quotes is that you can't choose your situation, but you can choose your reaction. It's really the only thing you get to choose is your attitude and the way you respond to things that happen to you. Yeah, that's absolutely right. And that's the beauty of a yoga and a meditation practice is that it creates the space in your mind to be able to not react.

martin p prihoda (07:53)

to certain circumstances. It's one of my favorite quotes is that you can't choose your situation, but you can choose your reaction. It's really the only thing you get to choose is your attitude and the way you respond to things that happen to you. Yeah, that's absolutely right. And that's the beauty of a yoga and a meditation practice is that it creates the space in your mind to be able to not react.

reactively, unconsciously. So it's all about creating space. Absolutely, yeah, that space between thought and the response and the ⁓ infraction, let's say.

In-person participant 1 (08:18)

reactively, unconsciously. So it's all about creating space. Absolutely, yeah, that space between thought and the response and the ⁓ infraction, let's say.

Yeah, then so you had your first child and then you had another baby. Had another child. she kept going. You kept going. Another rep, another set. You're gonna do another set. Well, you just can't do one. No, so I... Some people do. Yeah. Some people go for three. Yeah, like me. Yeah, like you. Yeah, like me. I was very... I'm a very committed human being. Right. No matter what I do, I commit to it, whether it's drinking.

martin p prihoda (08:31)

Yeah, and then so you had your first child and then you had another baby. Had another child. she kept going. You kept going. Another rep. Another set. You're gonna do another set. Well, you just can't do one. No, so I... Some people do. Yeah. Some people go for three. Like me. Yeah, like you. Yeah, like me. I was very... I'm a very committed human being. Right. No matter what I do, I commit to it, whether it's drinking.

smoking pot, working out, relationships, so on and so forth. If I choose to do it, I'm gonna do it 100 % to the best of my ability. And I was committed to this family and this particular woman who was seven years older than me when I was 21, definitely robbed the cradle.

In-person participant 1 (09:00)

smoking pot, working out, relationships, so on and so forth. If I choose to do it, I'm gonna do it 100 % to the best of my ability. And I was committed to this family and this particular woman who was seven years older than me when I was 21, definitely robbed the cradle.

Martin P Prihoda (09:17)

So this woman got pregnant. We had broken up.

And so about a month after

had actually finally broken up, I got a phone call and she was like, I'm pregnant and it's your baby. And I didn't believe her. Okay. But clearly the boy's mine. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He looks like you. does. And yeah. So

Like emotionally during that point, what were you going through? OK, so now you knew that you weren't really meant to be with this woman at this point. When she was pregnant, yeah. Yeah, and so this is just like, did you have any mentors? Did you have any men around, like older brothers, like a dad that was guiding you through this stuff? Honestly, no. I mean, my father's amazing. He's a great human.

Yeah, he was busy with work, he was often gone, and I don't have any older brothers, and I didn't have anybody to kind of guide me through this. I just kind of surrendered and felt like this was the path that I was destined to take. I was kind of lost when I was that age also. was trying on different things career-wise. ⁓

and I had no real direction. was a very challenging time in my life, probably from about 19 to, I'm not sure when, got better, that's for sure, maybe about 35. But when I was- That's a big stretch. That's a big stretch. Yeah, I get it. But when I was really like, when I thought it really mattered, what am I gonna do, who am I gonna be, I felt that I had to know these things before I turned 19, almost.

There was this expectation of going to university, choosing your career and sticking with it, choosing a trade, whatever it might be. And I felt quite lost. So when she got pregnant, I thought it was a bit of an answer to my purpose. And so I surrendered to that. And despite the best advice of all my good buddies and anybody who I cared for, we got married before she had the baby.

⁓ You did the honorable thing. I did indeed and I would do it again.

because I am a man of integrity. And I do believe when you're 21 years old, if you're having sex, you need to know that you might get somebody pregnant. It is, yeah. It is one of those things. It's a reality. And if I'm a big enough boy to make love, I'm a big enough boy to raise the baby. And so I felt that I needed to be accountable to the choices I made.

and show up for this for my son. was lots of people who, there was lots of, ⁓ I guess, news about men abandoning their children and the importance of fathers in their children's life. And I wanted to not leave my son.

without a father. And I also didn't want to live with regret to look back and be like, I wish I would have had a better relationship with my boy or been there for those years when he was younger or have left him with a particular person, my ex-wife, all alone. And so don't regret doing it, but it wasn't easy.

What would you say, you know, let's take a look at where you are now. Like, you're a mentor to many people. You help so many people with their health. You've just, you know, you're a very inspiring individual. What would the Joel of now...

What would you say to the Joel of your mid-20s? if he was just like, that Joel, from what you remember, came in right now and he was just sitting in that chair over there. What would you say to him? And he's going through everything that you went through. Yeah, I guess I'd tell him a few things. One is that...

Everything that's happening can be a good thing. And to not get hung up on it being a bad thing. So that I would have attracted more positive things into my life. Not getting hung up on ⁓ things like my friends were finishing university or starting their own businesses that were a lot more interesting than the business I started. It seemed that they had more of a purpose and a direction.

I would have told Joel that whatever he really wanted to do to find his passion and stick with it. Because by the time you're older, you will be making great money doing something you love. And I was just making money to pay the bills, not because I loved it. I was making money just to barely get by at To survive. Yeah. And so time and consistency in any particular aspect of life.

ends you or leads you to where you put your time and energy. Right. And so... I think it's... I don't know how... ⁓ I don't know how... ⁓ What's the word? Like how common it is that boys met in their mid-20s make great money. Right. You know, I suppose. But you know, like even if you're in a career that...

is going to make great money. Like let's say you go into medicine or law or something. You're just sort of graduating at that point, know, at 25. So I think if you went into the trades at 19, 20, by your mid 20s, you'd probably be making better money than a lot of people. I think so, yeah.

It's not really until you, I mean, it was for me, I was just getting by in my 20s, know? And I wasn't really committed to being an advertising photographer and moving overseas that my career really accelerated, like that single focus.

So yeah, so it's, yeah. So what you would say to the young Joel is? Find your passion, something that you really enjoy doing, whether it's yoga, lifting weights, surfing, traveling, and find a way to make money doing it.

and keep chasing that dream. maybe the first year you're only making $15,000, but by the time you turn 40, if you're continuing to do the same thing that you were doing back when you were 20, you're bound to be making enough money to accomplish all your dreams. Yeah, and I think that's exactly right. The one thing I would add to that too is that... ⁓

Once you find that thing, really try to hone your voice within that thing. Of course. Right? So, you know, for me was photography, for you it's just the physical and but... ⁓ And for somebody it might be, you know, music. So a lot of people are doing those things, but if you're really passionate about it, then you really find your voice in that thing. Which is like, if you're listening to a singer, you know, then okay, can say that's... that's like...

Mariah Carey or Eddie Vedder, ⁓ you can tell that voice, it's so unique. That voice sort metaphorically carries on to what you do. The way you train, I think you have a voice in the gym, the way you handle and the way you... ⁓

you know, the way that you're positive and not being too hands-on, but just encouraging. So there's a voice within that. That's like your spirit that comes through, which is why we all love you. This is why you're successful, because you found your voice within that realm, that genre. So that's just... I would just add that from my perspective is that, you know, find that what it is that you love, ⁓ and then find your voice within that thing that you love. And...

The other thing I would add too is that that thing that you love, you might not love it forever, or there's gonna be times when you don't really love it at all. Right. So, ⁓ sometimes I feel in life the more romantic a dream is, the...

the harder it is or like the more annoying it can get. I don't know. It's kind of a weird thing. is interesting, isn't it? Well, I think a lot of times we try to go after things that capture our eyes and not things that capture our heart. And speaking of voice, that's one of the things I really try to cultivate with my clients and with my kids when we have quiet moments to talk intimately is that there is a voice inside of the head that...

I call it God, some people might call it something else, but there's always a little whisper and it's telling, it's pointing you in the direction. And everybody knows that voice and you'll hear that voice tell you to do something and you won't do it. And then be conscious of the results and then that voice will come up again and you might do it and then see the results. And tune your ear to that small little voice that ⁓ we get, it's hard to hear as we get older.

But that little voice is something that I've learned to listen, like identify the sound of that voice so that I know where to go and what to do. And I can trust that voice. And had I listened to that voice, I maybe would have avoided some of my suffering, let's say. Right, right.

I think, you know, for us guys in our 20s, there's voices coming from different parts of the body. That's right. And I think that one voice maybe was stronger. was a very strong voice indeed. But I totally agree with you that there's that the power of the intuitive within and how can we strengthen intuition. You know, for me, that's it's really holding true to a meditation practice.

because you tap into that witnessing space within. ⁓ And if you come from that space, then it's more like this divinity source. It's like what the Hindus call the Atman, the Jiva Atman, right? The personalized consciousness, that witness, ⁓ kind of unmanifest witnessing within us. ⁓

You know, and then that runs through the gamut of the mind and then the mind plays all kinds of tricks and then, you know, there's a great quote where it's, you know, the ⁓ mind shouldn't be the master, right? The mind should be the servant. And I think for a lot of us, the mind is the master.

And so it's kind of like a really brutal master of the mind, right? Because it's just all over the place. It wants this, it wants that. It doesn't always want what's best for us. It wants what's best for its own identification at that time. So if we can come from that witnessing space, then we move through the experience, through the trauma.

not from the trauma, which is what the mind wants. The mind wants to move from the trauma. Right. We want to move through the trauma. The only way out is through, I say. Yeah, that's funny. We have a saying, my wife and I, it's like, the only way through is through. Yeah. Yeah. The only way through is through. Yeah. The subconscious mind is running. It makes 90 % of our decisions. And I love meditating also. ⁓

It allows you to hear those voices. And it's almost like you're saying the same eight to ten things again and again and again. And you don't even realize it until you're sitting still, nowhere to run. You've committed to the 30 minutes on the timer. And all of a sudden you start to become privy to the things that your subconscious mind is saying. And it's like we have two minds. One mind knows what's best for us.

Like, let's take alcohol for an example. One mind in the same body says, that's going to be fun. I can't go to a party without it. I don't socialize properly without alcohol. And then the other mind's like, no, I'm...

I'm stronger without it. I'd prefer not to drink. I prefer the way I feel the next day. And yet then we have to choose. Right. Right. Where are we going to go? What are we going to do? And the choice that's hardest in the moment is easiest in the end. I like that. And also, ⁓ you know, it comes down to observation, right? Like you can you can.

Meditation really is about observing the transience of all this shit, right? The transience of the... Like, it's crazy. You'll sit down in a meditation and you'll be focused on your breath and you'll be breathing and all of a sudden, like...

Five minutes later, you're just gone down some like crazy track of like ding, ding, ding, ding, this person, person, this, this and the pattern. Like you're just, you know, it's just like goes off on some tangent. Then you're like, Whoa, where did I just go? And then breath, like coming back to breath, right? Coming back and bringing it back. And then, and then maybe in like three more breaths, you're like gone again, gone again, but you just get better at bringing it back and then understanding like, this is how my mind works. It just, it like runs away with shit.

It's like gone, like on these tangents that are like grooves on a record. The same memory, the samskara, right? The latent impressions of mind. There's a great analogy of samskara is that samskara is like, if you imagine your consciousness as this vast desert, samskaras are like these railroad tracks.

that have been laid down that disappear into the distance, right? And your karma is like the trains that travel along these railroad tracks.

Right? And these latent impressions, it could, you know, let's say you dreamed about being a singer when you were nine years old, right? And it's very impressionable age, and you went out and sang, and then somebody that you really respected or somebody that you really looked up to said, look, you're just a shit singer. You're out of tune. You're tone deaf, blah, blah, blah. You're never going to be a great singer, right? Well, at nine years old, that's like a huge samskara, right? That's just formed. Indeed. It's a huge traumatizing samskara, this latent impression that I'm not going to be a great singer.

So that railroad track of that and the karma, the train that travels along that is a train of self-sabotage and a train of like, I'm not going to go for any more auditions or I'm going to somehow sabotage myself so that I don't get into situations where I could be a good singer or like, know, stuff like that. It happens all through our childhoods, these samskaras. But they're like sand, right? They're like that kinetic sand. So you can remold them.

And through meditation. Is it really true that I'm not a good singer? that, was that, somebody told me that and I chose to believe it, but is it true? No, it's not true. I'm a great singer. I just chose to believe what this person said because this is an impression in my mind. And my thoughts circle around these groups. Yeah. So you bump up, you come up to the, the, the, the cross at the railroad and it's like, do I continue to go down the same railway or do I?

hit the lever, go to the right instead. That, you know, change the groove, change the groove. Yeah. And I think in order to get to a space where you can do that, you need, I think you just need some sort of meditation practice where you can create the space and the observation from a distance to allow that change to happen. Otherwise you're so in the thinking.

Like you are the thought train. And most people are like that. They're just the thought train. They're just input, output, like robotic. So, you know, dissolving the connection between the thought and the emotion and just seeing the transience in that space is the magic of the change. It really is. Yeah. Hey, you don't have to believe everything you think. That's true, right? Yeah.

It's true. it's great. know, just to be able to have these conversations with somebody that is, you know, also very rooted in the physical. Yeah, I really, I, well, I did a lot of yoga asana, which I really appreciated. And then I started to look at the, what Ashtanga actually meant, what Ashtanga yoga means is the eight limped path. Right. And,

I started to look at that a little bit more seriously because in our Western culture we really just focus on asana, which is great and all, but it's one of eight in the yoga lifestyle. But the other seven are more spiritually inclined, so I think that's why our Western culture doesn't bite so hard on those. But...

Yeah, I started really taking my meditation and my pranayama practice seriously. I kind of hold them both as one, because one leads to the next. And I do it every morning. I get up early enough so I can do 33 minutes of meditation every day. And I can't live without it. I can go without lifting weights. It's a rough day if I don't work out or move physically, but I can't skip my morning meditation, meditation and prayer.

Reflection, quiet time, listening to myself, also setting the tone for my mental state for the day. Determining who I'm gonna be, how I'm gonna be, what my reaction's gonna be to whatever life throws at me. Yeah, I'm totally on that same wavelength. It's very hard for me to...

Definitely the flavor of the day changes if I don't have that at least 30 minutes of sitting and just observing my breath and bringing the mind back to center. And then, you know, by the end of that 30 minutes, you're pretty still in the mind. Pretty still, ready to take on the day.

you're still in the mind, and then when you come out of it, I say a little blessing, a little gratitude. I just feel like when I walk out into the kitchen, that ⁓ my vision has expanded. There's space around my mind. I can feel the space around my mind. Do you find that? Yeah, well, yeah, I do. find part of my meditation practice is...

visualizing the prana inside of the body and the life force, the chakras, the energy that flows up and down the body and how it radiates out through the body. And that we're just so much more than a bag of skin and muscles and blood. And that energetic pattern starts on the inside in the most microscopic spot.

And then it radiates, I would say, a couple of feet off of me in all directions, 360 degrees below the earth, above the crown of my head, left, right, front, back. And I just can feel that that light and energy is with me as I move around my day. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think it's...

You know, it just it's really neat just to have like two, it's two guys talking about meditation and awareness and, you know, spirituality. I mean, my goal with this podcast is really to just have more men listening and talking about, you know, things that haven't always been available to us growing up to talk about, right? I didn't talk about any of this with my dad. My dad was pretty emotionless kind of guy, Eastern European. You didn't you just sort of

you know, you kind of go through life and, you know, bear it and grin it and whatever. ⁓ But for me, I've always felt that, ⁓ you know, that there is this like tapping tapping into this deeper well of self that there's something much, much more than just our bodies and our minds. There's this witnessing force, this amazing power within us that we all share as as humans.

Yeah, an amazing power. I think that to get all conspiracy theory on you. Sure. I love it. Like the church and the state have destroyed the teachings, the teachings of Jesus. A lot of the legends and mystics have told us, like Jesus says, the kingdom of heaven is within you. Yet in church, ⁓

That's not where the kingdom of heaven is. The kingdom of heaven is outside of you. But Jesus said, I don't know how many times the kingdom of heaven is within you. And then we have all of these books that have been eliminated out of the Bible, the book of Mary, the book of Enoch, the book of Thomas, just to name a few. And these books are books that talk about how amazing, how we were made in the image of God, the imagination that we are. ⁓

We were made in the likeness of the creator of heaven and earth. And yet we live as though we aren't. And that our life is chosen for us by somebody else instead of knowing that you can heal yourself. You can, you choose your life, you choose your thoughts.

Everything that happens to you is that happens to you because of the amazing power that you have. And when we come back to that meditation, we become aware of those, the subconscious mind and the thoughts that we think, which are normally not positive thoughts. That's when we end up going to places in life where we don't really want to end up because we end up dwelling on the negative instead of understanding how much power.

thoughts and in our minds and our prayers and our words.

And the interesting thing as well is if you look at the... And this is why I'm so drawn to Eastern philosophies, is that you look at the Sutras of Patanjali, or you look at the teachings of the Buddha, or the Bhagavad Gita. Like, those three, like right there, those are seminal pieces of literature on human psychology that are thousands of years old. And the basis of all of them is that

is this witnessing self, this jiva, this atman, this divinity, this soul within us. And ⁓ the reason we suffer is because ⁓ of these identities that we attach, that the ego mind is attaching itself to constantly. And trying to...

Just trying to grasp onto permanence and not understanding the transient nature of the world around us and just holding on so tight to stuff. And it's all just laid out in these texts. Whether it's Krishna talking to Arjuna or whether it's Patanjali in the sutras, the yoga sutras, or where it's just the Buddha, right? He's like the Buddha said, to identify as is to suffer as. And the thing I love about...

especially the Buddhist philosophy is that you could be a Christian and be a Buddhist, you could be a Muslim and be a Buddhist. There's no divine... ⁓

There's no sort of divine power to Buddhism. It's just these four noble truths. It's like, look, you're suffering in this life. This is why you're suffering. This is how you get out of the suffering. Or the fourth one is like, this is how you get out of the suffering, the eightfold noble path. So the first noble truth is suffering is a fact of life.

The reason we suffer is our attachment to identity, our craving and our aversion. So just basically, you know, back and forth out of the present moment. ⁓ Then the third is there is a way out of the suffering. And the fourth noble truth is this is the way out of the suffering. So it's just it's like so simple, but so hard at the same time. So hard. You know.

And it just, think it really just comes down to this idea of sitting in silence, observing your mind, know thyself, right? Know thyself, the famous Greek.

It was written above the oracle. Know thyself. It's the same. Even Christ would have said something similar. Know thyself. The kingdom of heaven is within being your salvation is within. That's right. How is your heart? How is your mind? How do you treat other people? Are you generous? What have you done with the gifts that you've been given? Are you holding on to them and burying them or are you sharing them with others? Yeah.

And I think the deeper you go into self, the more those qualities of compassion and empathy and love spring forth. Because it is our natural state to be in the high vibes of life. But you've got to crack through the bedrock of ego and identity.

Because the thing with identity and ego is that you decided that you're this, that this is my status in life, or this is I'm a Democrat, or I'm a Republican. People are dying on these hills. This Democrat, Republican, I'm a Christian, I'm a Muslim, I'm this gender. I'm an anarchist. Right, sure. Whatever, but it's just an identity. And even though you're intuitive, deeper, witnessing

is screaming at you going like this is ridiculous. You've invested so much now into this identity that it's very, it's like you can't change because you're so invested and this and the thing about an identity is it has to be defended, right? You have to defend your identity. And we all want to be known. And we all want to be known, which isn't like that's another, it's vanity, right? It's vanity. meanwhile, there's this part of us that's just witnessing all of it. It's just observing all of this. It's observing the mind.

⁓ you know, just becoming so entrenched in this binary identification. Right. That it causes so much suffering. So much suffering. You know? I mean, it's kind of an interesting thing. It's an interesting subject matter because we just can't sit around all day and meditate and then get up and walk through the forest and then go swim in the lake and then come home and not eat and... Like, there is this life where you have to...

make money. Yeah. Even if you love the layman's, the layman's. That's right. Even if you didn't have to make money, you'd still have to make choices. And perhaps you might be able to keep your money in the bank and sit under the tree for 40 days and meditate. But

I mean, we've become so consumed with materials, activities, entertainment, that it's everywhere. And to live like that with a lot of money would make you live almost like a homeless person, purposeless. Right. Yeah. It's such a hard line to walk. Money really is an amplification tool, right? It just amplifies what you already are.

You know, it doesn't... I don't think money will change a bad person into a good person. Right? Maybe turn a good person into a bad person. Well, I think it'll just amplify that character. if that character was already dubious or just, you know, and then you throw a bunch of money at that, it's just gonna amplify. I hear you. Yeah. So it's why it's...

nice to become wealthy when you're a bit older and you're you if you have a mission or purpose, if your purpose and mission is just to make money, like that's not really a that's not really a purpose. I don't know. It's a bit for me would be. But I can't I can't judge what other people think. But for me, you know, for for me, I would have to use that money to proliferate, you know, the message and the purpose I feel that can alleviate human suffering. Well, I mean, you've started this podcast.

Yeah. Yeah. So I started this podcast. Yeah. I have no, I have no idea how I'm to make any money at it, no, that's my point. That's what I'm saying is that you, was the same with photography. I had no idea. I was going to make any money at it. people said that you're going to like go to India and be a photographer. Like what, like, how are you going to make that work?

and I just made it work. not only that, I kicked some serious ass at it. Yeah, you did. well. So I think if you have them... ⁓ It's like what Alan Watts said. Once you get the message, hang up the phone and just go do it.

Hey Larry. Are you on the air? Yeah, we're on the air.

As a landlord, he's a great guy. I'm to get him on the podcast. I think he like, like, followed the, like the Grateful Dead around for a long time. Oh, he did. He's like one of those guys. Yeah. He's a wow. Yeah. That's something I really missed out on in my twenties was I didn't get to just be a schmuck and do nothing for six months, you know, follow the Grateful Dead around or go, go surf. I didn't go on a good surf trip before I got, had my kids. That's when I went to Australia.

Zealand, traveled a bit through Asia for about nine months actually so that was a lot of fun. You had a bit of ⁓ time there too. I did, did yeah and then I did start my own business as a floor layer shortly after the kids were born. My father was a floor layer, I worked with him quite often. Okay so he taught you the craft. Absolutely yeah so it was really great to have that when I...

I had the kids because you get paid by the square foot. And ⁓ I had some skills and I would work by myself. I started practicing yoga so young, so I'd wake up early in the morning around 5.30 and I would do yoga and I'd be out the door by 7 and on the job by 7.30. And I don't know where I was going to go with that, but...

I got paid by the square, which was nice, and not by the hour, and had my own little business, got to write off all of my expensive... That's physical labor. That's why you got into the yoga, right? Because your back was... My back hurt. Yeah, your back hurt. Yeah, and then too much yoga was too much yoga. After 10 years of practicing yoga, my shoulders were screwed, from too much vinyasa, my low back was hurting, just the way that... Like up dog, down dog, up dog, down dog.

And so that is incredible because yoga really is about the gentleness and the you wouldn't expect to get injured from yoga. You wouldn't believe how many people do though. Yeah, right. It's especially pick rums. OK. Yeah. ⁓

Don't know if we're allowed to say that. Is he in jail? is that guy? don't know. Someone's combing his hair somewhere. I don't think like I loved I loved moksha and big rooms and hot yoga. Yeah, I did I remember coming out of those classes just feeling like a million bucks because just that heat but

Yeah, know, Bikram is a classic case of separate the art from the artist. Don't meet your heroes. your Bikrams, but don't go hang out with Bikram. Maybe. Unless you're a dude, maybe we would have got along with Bikram. But I think he has some ulterior motives. He probably went to brought my wife with me. Definitely not. No Bikram. I love Moksha yoga too. That was a great sequence. ⁓

the heat and

My wife owned a Mocha studio. that's right. And so when we met, she had just opened it and I got to help her. And so that's another thing I wanted to touch on is that, you know, this first marriage you had and it didn't work out so well and you really struggled with it. But man, like it just you came out of that ⁓ fire like a phoenix from the ashes and you met the love of your life who you're with now. And ⁓ we all love Lena. Just that cacao she makes. I'm to have her on this

as well, about the power of Kakao. You guys are just a wonderful match, and she's so supportive. And ⁓ you guys really together form a ⁓ very integral ⁓ anchor for the community, this community of health and healing.

For us, anyway, like we really enjoy it all the circumference of it, you know, the add-ons, the the ceremonies and the extra stuff that's all around it. So, I really, lot of gratitude for you guys on the island. Thank you. Yeah. I know I'm not alone in saying that. Thank you, Martin. It's an honour and like we were talking about sharing our gifts and listening to that little voice that when you're doing what you're...

called to do and what your authentic nature wants to do, then it ripples out and it affects everybody in a positive way. And we are blessed to... I was really blessed to meet my wife, actually. I think that it was my reward for my integrity in my past relationship. Being just a good man. Like, almost had... I think if you hadn't gone through that first hard relationship, then you maybe might not have met.

your current wife because you weren't forged.

But the fire forged in the fires of like hell, shitty relationship-ness. I agree, absolutely. And I think my wife should thank my ex-wife for training me. Right? She my goodness. She was just like a crazy kickboxing coach. That's right. And she kicked my ass. Yeah. So then when Lena and I would get in an argument or Lena would be acting in a way where I was like, ugh.

Be like, it ain't so bad. It ain't so bad. know bad and this ain't so bad. Maybe in your first marriage when you were just going through hell, your first wife was just thinking, you know, like, this is for your own good. I'm doing this for your next wife. That's right. she owes me. You're going to thank me for this. Well, mean, blessings to her. hope she's also, you know, we're all on our spiritual journey and ⁓ that we can all get to the place where we can. ⁓

Just see our blind spots better. There's that Buddhist story where everybody has two bags, right? One is the big bag that's hanging in front of you and one is the small bag that's slung over the back of your shoulders that you can't see, right? So it's like in the big bag, you look in the big bag that's in front of you, it's everybody else's faults. Everybody else's, like what everybody else has done wrong. And then in the bag, in that little bag, in the bag that you can't see, it's all the shit that you've done wrong and all your insecurities.

can't see it because it's in your blind spot, right? So, really working like the path, this journey, the spiritual journey to wholeness is just kind of like, that's my blind spot. And it's like, you you lift up that rock in the forest and all the creepy crawlers are just like scatter. Yeah. You know, so that's kind of like what it is too, right? You go to workshops, you get deeper into your practice and you're just like, oh, that like shitty, ugly thing that happened to me or that's part of me, I really don't like it, but I need to just look at it because

It's radiating trauma and I need to just go through it and then you go through it and... Makes you who you are. And that's the healing, that's the wholeness that we're trying. Otherwise you're just like... I think so many people just go through life fragmented, right? You know, like different traumas have happened so you just fragment parts of yourself. And it's like you make that choice, am I gonna let it ruin me or am gonna let it make me? Yeah.

Like that's the interesting thing is how, like how do some people make that choice and other people just remain ignorant of it their whole lives and they go through their whole lives just.

unhealed and fragmented. And some people just say, look, I'm going to look at this shit. I'm going to heal from this, as bad as it is. I'm not going to let it all. It's always fascinated me how some people are able to choose and some people don't choose. Oftentimes, maybe it's a car accident, or maybe somebody gets sick, or maybe you lose a loved one. It forces you into making that choice of going deeper. But.

Some people do, some people don't. I don't know. But you gotta choose your friends, right? So I choose people that are going deep into the messiness and that path to wholeness, right? That's what I'm interested in. Yeah, I mean, I think first you need to know there's a choice. Yes. Right? And we've been trained that, if something bad happens, then you have permission to respond negatively, whether it's with anger or...

with trying to get justice for yourself, whatever it might be. Revenge. Revenge, seems like we've been trained to think that now I've been given permissions to act in a particular way that I wouldn't instead of ⁓ choosing to continue to chase the light, to chase what's right, to do what's best. Yeah. But it's hard. mean, doing what's...

doing the thing that's best for you is normally hard.

Most days and I work I wake up at 530 I wake up at 530 then I meditate and depending on what time my first client is I go to the gym and I'll work out for 90 minutes. So before I've even had any Sweetness in my life. I've meditated and I've worked out for 90 minutes. I've sweat I'm sore my good my calluses are are folded over and What is it about working out that just transforms the mind? It's like

I know I'm asking you this question, but like.

You know, ⁓ you have the koshas, right? The sheaths. So the body is the outermost extension of mind kind of vibe. it's like, whatever thought or emotion drops into the body or into the mind, somehow ripples out into the body, right? So like anger, like anger is constricting in your chest or shame, you feel it in your face. So you can access your mind through the body. Totally. It goes both ways. It goes both ways, right?

So, and I think that's why the yogis came up with asana practice is that they knew it was very difficult to access the mind through the mind. So yoga asana practice is really accessing the mind through the body. You know, like when you're holding a pose, like when you're holding warrior two or whatever for like 20 breaths and your quads are screaming at you and you're just like, observe that, observe that. Don't move away from it. Observe it, be in it.

That's powerful, Because you're just like, it's just a sensation. Right. I could do this for another three minutes. It's not painful. It's only uncomfortable because I'm telling myself that it's uncomfortable. But really, it's just a sensation. And it's like, what am I going to focus on? Am I going to focus on what's hard about this? Or am I going to find what's easy about this? And where's the stretch? How's my breath?

what feels good in this pose. And again, it's like the mind is bent to what's hard, what's bad instead of what's good. And the yoga practice, the eight limb path, it helps us again to choose, am I gonna focus on?

The strain or am I going to focus on the gains, which could be? Well, the mind wants to focus on, the mind wants to judge the experience. And protect us from hurting ourself or doing something that's too challenging. So like, I've got an itch, I have to scratch it, right? I can't just observe it. And that's what's so great about yoga is that it forces you and you put your body in positions that aren't always comfortable or pleasurable. But, you know, there's

⁓

there's a neutrality to it. Like we can observe this experience without putting a judgment on it. Totally. ⁓ That's kind of what I think is interesting. And so I think with working out, I mean, with working out, you're strengthening. The mind also. You're the mind also because you're doing that 11th rep or that 12th rep and you're going to your limits and you're strengthening the body and you're strengthening the entire...

skeletal system, the muscles around the skeleton. So you're walking taller, you're walking with your shoulders back, prouder, stronger. That also, you know, I think that affects the It's like you choose to do something hard. That you go in, you dedicate yourself to do something hard, harder than you did yesterday. And then when you go out into the real world, you're like, huh, I can do whatever I want. I can...

I can write another extra paper today. can drive an extra hour for the delivery company you work for. I can start this business. Right. I've done very hard things and I've proved to myself that I can be successful at them. And now through lifting weights per se or holding Vera 2 for 20 breaths. So why can't I do Accomplish My Dream?

And I mean, never mind the hormones. When you start lifting heavy weights, mean, the hormone release, whether it's the cortisol or the dopamine and then the serotonin and all of it, it's so rewarding because that's what we're chasing when we're chasing sex, drugs, booze. We're looking for those.

That's your phone. Sorry, everybody. That was my... I don't have my phone on silent. Like everybody that's listening now is checking their phone. Was that my phone? Right. We all have the same beep. Just so you know, everybody, that was my phone, not your phone. my phone. In the car. I have my wife on whistle. Yeah. I'm like, who's the whistle on? Oh, yeah, yeah. Like, it better be you, baby. You know, I...

That's an interesting thing because ⁓ I think we both have successful marriages and partnerships. ⁓ I don't think I would have been able to last as long in India or the way or the I've had the success that I've had India if it wasn't for Tonya and her support. So as a lover, as the mother of my children, but also like, you know, I like to call her my accomplice.

Right. Because it's like we kind of went over there and we're like, you're not supposed to go to India and like, succeed and make a career. Right. Like it's, it's, it's against the, it's kind of weird. It's like kind of wrong. Right. So I'm like, you know,

You're like my accomplice because we're committing this sort of like weird crime because people are supposed to come from India to Canada to be successful and then we're going the other way. Right. So and it's I think the same with you guys. think you like your accomplices in this in this journey. Absolutely. Your friends, your lovers. You guys are married, right? Very legally. Yeah. Yeah. So you're married. We're legally married. But you're also kind to each other. Married and kind to.

each other. Yeah, you're already kind to each other. I think and I think most importantly, ⁓

I think our wives laugh at our jokes. Well, that's really important to me. That's up there with sex. You got to make each other laugh. Yeah, that's the truth. Sometimes during sex. Yeah, that's the truth. Not at me. Don't laugh at me. During sex. Let's laugh together about how much fun we're having. Yeah, in this position. ecstasy. Yeah. Yeah, no, my wife is very supportive and we...

I mean, in my business, probably 85 % of my clientele are female. And my wife doesn't have any qualms about it. Yeah.

Well, and I remember my Tonya started going to you first and then I started hearing about I think it was Monica that told Tonya, you got to go to Joel and then you found us and then she started going and she's like, my God, this guy, Joel's amazing. And I'm like, hold on, hold on. It's the personal trainer thing. This is so cliche. It's like my wife's talking about the personal trainer. This is like how every affair starts. It's the personal trainer. I'm like, OK, either either I like, OK, either I'm just going to question that, you know,

I'm gonna go join this guy Joel if he's so good. But the whole time Tonya was like, you gotta go to Joel. And I procrastinated. It's kind of this thing in my mind where I'm like, I'm not ready yet, I'm not ready yet. Okay, now go. And then once I start, it's been great. ⁓ But anyway, going back to the relationship thing, I think, what would you say is...

the glue or what holds you guys together. Well, one thing. I'm not putting the, yeah. Well, I mean, honestly, as could be a bunch of things, but. One of the things that comes to mind for me is sex.

Like regular sex with my lover keeps us happy. You know, and it's the same as working out. Like all of the hormones that release skin to skin, being close, being intimate. ⁓ That really helps me as a dude to be more open, to be softer, to be more receptive to her as she goes through her lady cycles. Right. ⁓

because my needs are met in that area. Yeah, there's an app I think that can help with that. I think it helps men with the lady cycles and where they're at. And I think that's when you were telling me about it as an app. it's like a notification comes up and it's like, be careful what you say today. ⁓ Well, the women I've trained have trained me because they're like, ⁓

I'm mooning today, day one, and at first I was like, oh my goodness, girl, why are you telling me this? And then I started realizing, like, oh, on different days or sections of the cycle, the ladies are different. And get like...

10 days here and then 10 days later all of a sudden they're totally different. That's just the way that it is. And so actually training women has been really great for my relationship just to see my wife in a bit of a different way and to see her as a woman and really understand women are different than us men are. They sure are. They sure are but...

Back to the question, sex is super important. think it's super important for both parties and studies show that when couples are intimate on a regular basis that the relationship lasts and it's really healthy and it's such a manly thing to say. also we try to take space from each other, intentional space. Like every year one of us has to leave for two weeks. It doesn't have to be all at the same time. But then it just kind of reboots our excitement for each other. ⁓

Yeah, just laughing at my jokes that really counts. A sense of humor, think. A sense of humor, having fun. Like at this age, we're both successful in our careers. Like there's nothing to fight about. Yeah. And your kids are out of the house. Yeah, the kids are 25 and 23. Yeah, you guys are empty nesters. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And so that's, I don't know, is that, that takes...

Yeah, that take maybe that takes out a certain challenge because like we're we're still in it like I got a six year old, 11 year old and a 15 year old, right? So it's very it's like you get into this ⁓ thing sometimes where you're just raising kids all the time. Like if you're not cooking, you're driving them somewhere or you're like disciplining them, right? So

When we do finally come together, like we just have to, like it has to be scheduled sometimes, which is kind of weird. ⁓ But you got to like, okay, it's shower time or it's like, you know, the kids are all out of the house. Like now's the time. It needs to be known. It's the unspoken word. Like we be getting down. Yeah, we'd be getting down. We got to do it because you know, in like 10 minutes, there's gonna be knock on the door. That's right. Somebody wants some hot chocolate. I'll be, I'll be more than eight minutes, but less than 10.

I promise. Oh, yeah. It's just like the, you you're, oh, it's just like, you're getting it, you know, you're getting it on. And then it's just like the pitter-patter of the steps. And then like the knock on the door. Mama, I'm hungry. The sheets rustle, rustle. You're just like, okay, hold on here. Hold on. Okay. Yeah. But oh boy. Yeah. Kids. They're fun.

Yeah, they are. are. ⁓ They are. That was that was on the Lululemon bag for a while. The children are the orgasm of life. It's interesting. It's very true. It's literal. I thank Chip for that. Chip. That's right. Chip. ⁓ So, yeah. Yeah. The children are the orgasm of that. But, you know, it's ⁓ I know it's your progeny, right? It's like these people are going to be.

But you're also doing your best to raise good humans, And not only raise good humans, but also not get caught up in the shit that your parents have handed down to you. Totally. Right? So you're like, my gosh, I recognize this behavior from my father. I don't want to replicate that. So now you're, again, all the more reason to just create space in the mind and be like, I'm not going to approach. ⁓

this with my 15 year old son the way my father approached it with me. Totally. Of course you'll make your own mistakes, you'll make more different mistakes. Absolutely. But cutting that ancestral trauma that winds through generations, right? Like you've seen that wind through generations and it just gets passed off from father to son to son to son. It really does. Unless until somebody finally just like either does not have any more kids or just like cuts it off and says, I'm I'm stopping that.

That's that Trump trauma that's been winding through our family, whether it's some sort of abuse or maybe it's alcoholism or whatever. Just say like that. That ends with me. Whether it's energetic or physically, what an incredible gift to give your children just by like just ending that saying this, this shit that's that's happened to my father, his father before him, his father before him is stopping with me. ⁓ It's powerful.

Society in general, and I think a lot of it is also thanks to the Eastern traditions, we're kind of waking up to our ability to change things and to become aware of what we're doing. The internet is helping with that, right? I that would be a positive on the internet, for sure. Yeah, just your access to ⁓ information on just YouTube videos. Right. Just the AI-generated voice speaking positive quotations. Yeah, sure.

I don't think we're the quite, well, we're getting there with that AI voice. my goodness, it's kind of crazy. Sometimes we'll put on YouTube.

And we're watching or, you know, just looks up, look up how to grow potatoes. And then you put it on and it's, you're going to want to grow potatoes. And you're like, this is not a normal voice. an AI voice. For all you listeners out there, this podcast is a hundred percent human. This is organic human. Not even wearing a watch. Yeah. He's not even wearing a watch. I'm wearing a watch. That's right. This is a hundred percent human. And as you know, I think that's a real

That's going to be much so valuable in this exponential age that we're heading into with AI. is the humanity and again coming back to self and really, you know, kind of bucking the algorithm. And connection, human to human connection. Not just online, looking each other in the eyes and hanging out.

shaking hands, throwing some kettlebells up on our skin. Talking into purple microphones. And it is purple. Do like the purple? I had a pink, there's a pink option too, but I think it'd be subtle on the purple. Mm-hmm. comment. Yeah, Joel. So I guess a couple last little things, but what...

What's your advice to anyone that's listening that's just like, I'm not super happy with my body, I'm like 45, I don't know, I don't really have time to work out. What's a way they can just start at home with what they have? Well, honestly, if you don't have time to work out, I'd make some time to meditate. If you could cut some...

some time out of your morning, wake up a little bit earlier, start sitting quietly, set your clock first, just start with 10 minutes, sit down, kneel down, whatever it is, don't move for 10 minutes when the timer goes, get up, get on with your life, try to extend that to 30 minutes, and then you'll find you have more time in your life, because you're not so scattered in your brain. I believe most people have time to work out. Maybe you can find some time to go for a walk.

But really, if you're 45 years old, I recommend you should work out and you should start lifting weights. It's so good for the body, so good for the hormones, so good for the mind. It gives you a purpose. Since we're not really hunter-gatherers anymore, need to, women and men need to pick up heavy things that you're uncomfortable with ⁓ so that you believe in yourself, so that you know that you can accomplish anything that you want.

What are your go-to ⁓ exercises for an at-home workout? okay, let's say I've got a couple of dumbbells and I've got a little space. What's your go-to? What are the three or four main...

workouts that you think? I try to incorporate a few different movement patterns into one, such as we got the thruster crossfit style. It's dumbbells in your hand, hands, you're holding them at about shoulder height, you squat, elbows to knees, and then you thrust dumbbells to the sky. It's a great exercise. ⁓

Another great exercise would be like a single leg deadlift with both dumbbells. We've got some balancing and I hate those single leg deadlifts. Do you? Yeah, and I don't like them. I love them.

I don't like doing things on one leg. I know it's good for me. Vera 3 for all my yogis out there with some dumbbells in there and some repetitions. But the deadlifts are so good. I get it. The deadlifts are so good. Another exercise you don't need any weights for is push-ups. Just change your hand position on the regular so you don't get stuck in one kind of hand position for the wrists. Do them on dumbbells. ⁓ If you can find something to do pull-ups on, that's another amazing exercise.

Okay, one more exercise. That was four, but two of them didn't include dumbbells. Okay, yeah. Most people are gonna have like a set. You can buy set of dumbbells at Canadian Tire for like... 100 bucks. 100 bucks, right? So that's like a good place to start. And you can get a dumbbell tripod or something like that with some up to 30 pounds, I believe.

Yeah, whatever makes you feel good. know, chase the pump a bit. think the incline chest press, know, with summer coming up. That's a nice one. The incline chest really makes it pop. It hits the shoulders, hits the pecs. I love that one too. That's one of my faves.

Yeah, my workouts lately have been a lot of fun. I've been choosing one exercise, let's just say like deadlifts, and I'll do 10 sets of deadlifts in my workout. And I'll just gradually go heavier, heavier, heavier until I'm kind of at my max around my sixth set. And then I'll hit my max six, seven and eight, and then I'll go down nine and 10. But I'll also squeeze some pull ups in between there. So I'll get 50 pull ups in. I'll skip for three, two minute rounds.

Do some bench press so that by the end of the workout, I've done eight different exercises, but I've crushed my deadlifts. That's awesome. Yeah, it's so much fun. I'm getting a lot of really great results out of that. Just picking up heavy things, heavier than I'm comfortable with. If I'm not getting a little anxious before at least one set, then I'm not lifting heavy enough. I want to be afraid. Joe, I'm going to just pause this for a second. I've got to go to bathroom. Okay, I'll chase you out there.

Okay. All right. I wonder how Joe Rogan does it like with, you know, when it's time to take a squirt. That guy goes on for three hours. Yeah. Three hours. He talks to his people. That's crazy. Yeah. And I don't know how much editing they do them. It seems like you don't do too much editing. mean, I guess when I've listened to some of his podcasts back at 11, one hour, 11 minutes. Yeah. When I've listened to a few of his podcasts, he's like, Hey, okay. I got to go to the bathroom.

Talk to what's his name for a bit. Jamie. You listen to lot of Rogan, don't you? I like Rogan. I do too. I I get that he pisses some people off and maybe they think he spreads misinformation, but I don't know. I started listening to him because of DMT. He's a big DMT proponent. is. that's one thing I think we could talk about is...

is the power of psychedelics and healing. I've largely... alcohol and nicotine were kind of my things. they were like... I like both of those things very much. So, smoking and... I've given up the smoking. like I was telling you on our hike, I just recently gave up the nicotine gum. I didn't smoke for 15 years when I was in India.

of all the places to smoke. I didn't smoke. I know. You got the cheapest, best cigarettes over there. And I didn't smoke for 15 years. And I came back, and somebody was at a party or was hanging out with some friends, and somebody had an e-cigarette.

Dirty like a vape. Yeah, and those were illegal in India like you couldn't get vapes, right? So nobody ever vaped people just smoked or they didn't right? So then I was like, let me let me try this vape So I tried the vape and man, dude, I got hooked on the vapes. ⁓ I was vaping now and I'm and then I'm starting to do all this research I'm like what is in the shit? Yeah, and then I'm like what?

Popcorn lung what? Yeah, what is popcorn lung? I'm like, okay, it's some kind of glycerin. It's like an oil. I'm like, okay This is not better than cigarettes cigarettes are best. Yeah, like I might as well just smoke cigarettes. What is this gooey gunk? That's okay. So I'm like forget that so I gave up the the vapes

And then I was like, still had, you know, I was kind of hooked on nicotine again. So I'm like, well, I guess I'm going to buy Nicorette gum. And Nicorette gum was great because it's, you like four milligram pieces of gum. And I wrote my book, like I was telling you, I wrote my book on Nicorette gum. So I like take, I take a Nicorette and ⁓ I just like write for two hours, like four milligrams. But then it worked as like a nootropic.

But then it started to take over my life. Like I just started eating, like one after the other, knicker hats.

And now they got like the nicotine pouches that people put, right? Zimts or something? Yeah, whatever. So anyway, I got addicted to that. And then my whole family was like, dad, you're, you know, why are you on those gums? It was just annoying everybody. I was always chewing. Like my jaw was always moving. And Tony was like, your jaw's always moving. it was, right? But you know what? I think, like, I think it's actually made my...

John more square like like these John muscles. Look at that. It's kind of like my friend you've been you've been wasn't it called mewing ⁓ mewing. It's got like a Brad Pitt thing going on. yeah, he's got the I think it's from the gum. Anyway, I gave up the gum this and I'm just like and it's no more nicotine and no more alcohol. Good for you. And the my stats on my like my biometrics have shown that that has been a very positive decision. The HRV is higher. Nice, you know, better sleeps. ⁓ So yeah, but alcohol.

We should probably talk about alcohol because alcohol is really

It's just so pervasive and it's just such a thing, alcohol, isn't it? It's so everywhere. It's socially accepted and, you know, it's okay to be an alcoholic, but it's not okay to be a drug addict. Right. And I mean, mean, methadone is one thing or... Like, well, cocaine. Cocaine, right. Yeah. That's like an evil. Like there's a huge stigma around the era of cocaine addict, a crack addict. Right. Yeah. But alcoholic? Big deal. He finished his day of work.

Yeah, yeah, had a six pack. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, right. But God forbid you go home and have a line. That's it. You forget that even if you show up at work the next day, it's going to ruin your family. Yeah, right. So alcohol and arguably alcohol out of, you know, does more damage and is actually the worst for so many things, right? Health, like just car accidents, stupid decisions. Like, you know, we talk about in meditation, we talk about creating space between

input and output alcohol just like it eviscerates that space there is no space there is only reaction my goodness and bad reactions so but you know that's the that's the messed up thing is that like i love a glass of like a nice pino right yeah

But again, it just takes over. have ⁓ an addictive personality. do too. I quit drinking, it's over seven years ago now, but ⁓ I miss it sometimes, but I don't miss it for emotional reasons. I miss it for hanging out with the boys, sitting around a campfire, drinking a six pack.

just the way that it... The social lubrication of it all. The social lubrication. like the first two beers, it's like you're stuttering over your words to just try to hang out with the dude. And then by the fourth beer, you can't stop talking and you're laughing and knee slapping. And there's something about booze that sure is fun. But seven years sober feels pretty good, gotta Congratulations, man. That's amazing. That's amazing. Seven years is incredible. ⁓

Did you find that when you quit drinking that ⁓ social situations became a little more challenging at first because you didn't have that sort of liquid courage? Well, was something that I... One of the reasons I quit drinking is because was sick of my relationships with men specifically being alcohol-based. Like, let's go work out, then go grab a beer. Let's go do this and then go grab a beer. And I was kind of fed up with...

shallow relationships and my non-authentic self that I needed to lubricate in order to be who I was. So by the time I quit drinking, I was just happy to be sober. I was kind of getting off on the power of no. Yeah. I just loved saying no. And ⁓ it was amazing to watch how people responded to my no. And that was, was enthralling in fact. What kind of responses were you getting?

Well, there was, I lost a few friends, that's for sure. They were quite disappointed that I quit drinking, but also it would make people contemplate their choices. And oftentimes, it wasn't the desired outcome, but you could see the people felt guilty. And they, I imagine most people who drink at some point in phase of the game, they're like, I gotta quit this. And then you meet somebody who's quitting and it...

It really shines the light on your habit patterns. And so that was quite interesting. Admiration, think, too. Maybe. Absolutely. If you're drinking. I know in my life when I've been drinking and I've met somebody that's has quit, says, I know it's been like two years. don't I don't feel guilt. I feel more like, man, I admire that. Right. I want that. I want that because I kind of know this is not great for me. And it's dimming my light. And it's like I don't meditate, you know, when I'm drinking and then

you've done it. I'm kind of like, it's like, I'm kind of envious, but I'm also kind of, I admire it because I know if it's possible for you, it's possible for me. I just need to, I just need to do it.

It's the power of no and it's that choice every day. it's like, you your sleep is better. Like, you know, your sleep is better. I meditate. It's virtually impossible to have a meditation practice and be drinking. You wake up and you're hungover. You're hungover and it's just like, it's like this fog, right? So it's like you're trying to do something that enhances clarity, but you've just put this huge fog onto yourself. Absolutely. So it's it's messed. And like, if you want to talk about how to put too much estrogen into the body as a man.

Just drink beer especially. the hops is just like Creates an estrogen response like none other right? Yeah Yeah a government regulated poison where they can take more of my tax dollars Tax me harder, you know

It's nice to not give the government money. Well, it's like that with cigarettes, wasn't it? It really is. don't mean what's a pack of cigarettes these days. Twenty five bucks for twenty or something. Twenty five bucks. my God. But that's how much a disposable vape costs. I was buying those and I'm like, this is the same. This is the same amount of money as it for twenty five kind of puffs or something. No, it's no, they're like thousand puffs. But ⁓ it's the same. think it's the same milligram quantity as a pack of cigarettes, like twenty milligrams of nicotine. ⁓ I don't know. ⁓ But

Yeah, like it's just for some reason, tobacco and cigarettes have become so stigmatized now. You see somebody smoking and you're like, what? Sean. Whereas alcohol, don't think has reached that point yet. think younger generations actually are drinking less. Yeah, my kids are drinking less than I did. I kids are like, you know, 19 year old, 20 year old, still have a beer, but they're not like...

man, like I remember my my high school grade, like grade 12 was just like wasted wasted like we're drinking at least and I just don't know.

don't know if you go to the when I went to the cost to the bar when I was 18 when you go to Cowboys in Calgary and it was like 25 cent giraffes on Thursday night. You know, I could drain way too many. Oh, I'd walk out of there 15 bucks later. Hammered. Dude, we used to go to the can be remember the can be. Oh, yeah. course. I heard a brew for like four bucks or for a burger and a brew is like two to three bucks. Right. So you got a burger fries and then like a big pint for like four bucks. Right. And then you have another six. And then you have another six.

So you still, so you know, still spent $20 poor maybe. It's in for a good time but now I imagine it's over a hundred and fifty bucks to go to the bar. What do get a pint of beer now for like?

Nine bucks, eight bucks. That's crazy. Like what's a beer at Moby's? I don't know, mean I never had one. quit drinking two months before I moved here so I had one friend, Bradley Morris, who you should have on the show, he's a real cowboy.

He's not an authentic cowboy in a cowboy hat, but he's... He's cowboy in spirit. He really is. He's a spiritual cowboy. I love it. He's a spiritual cowboy. Is he a dad? He's a father. Oh, we're gonna have him Dad Buzz. And he has a business about kids and he's a really great human.

Anyway, I knew him when I moved here. I knew him through the yoga studio. He was my only friend and I had no friends, so all of my relationships were cultivated soberly here. That helped, It helped me just to define my friendships. I wasn't stuck at Moby's or going to the bar once a week trying to hang out with people who were drinking.

I became quite comfortable alone for a while. And like I was saying to you, I addition my friends now. It's not like, can we get drunk together? It's like, how are you going to push me? You're going to push me spiritually? You're going to make me a better husband, a better father? You're going to push me in the gym? You're going to push me in my business? And how can I do that for you too? And I really appreciate it. Not just sitting around drinking, shooting the shit, but actually.

Real depth, real conversation, real connection. ⁓ alcohol was just a veil. Do you remember your last day of drinking? absolutely. What was it? What happened? Was it a... ⁓ well... Was it a disaster? No, no, no. It was a day. It was a great day, actually. so my uncle and my cousin and my father, my brother and I, we bought some football tickets to go see the Seattle Seahawks. Nice. And...

And we all went down to Seattle and tied one on. And ⁓ when I came home the next day, I quit. Really? Yeah. No hangover? None it was a hangover thing? No, I was hung. Nobody knew I was quitting. Like, I didn't tell my brother or my father. Did you know this was coming? yeah. This wasn't just like, OK, I'm down in Seattle. ⁓ I'm going to quit drinking. This is like, I'm working up to this in my mind. I'm working up to it in my mind, yeah.

Wanted to quit drinking when I turned 40. Okay. And then, I mean, I mean, I'll spare this deep part of the story, but, ⁓ had some stuff happen in my family that was really, really hard on my heart. And so I leaned pretty hard on the booze. was drinking probably every day at, at least a six pack. Still working out, still doing yoga, still, you know, functioning, but like just feeling like shit and, ⁓

I just felt the call to quit, but I didn't want to go to the Seattle Seahawks game sober.

Right. So, I, I, and we had this date lined up, so I just knew that it was going to be the last day. Perfect. So, and all the people you want to drink with. I had one buddy I wanted that I enjoy drinking with who I didn't get to drink my last day with, but otherwise it was my dad, my brother, my cousin, my uncle. Like, it was a great time. And you, yeah, and you've stuck to it. I've stuck to it. Yeah, I say I've done all the drinking. I've done the social drink. I've done the casual drink. I've done the friendly drunk. I've done this.

I've drunk, I've done the getting the fight drunk, I've done the forget what I said and did last night drunk, I got the piss in the corner drunk, I've done all the drunks, done all the drinkings and all of the shapes and all of the sizes. So you sort of look at yourself in the mirror and you're like, Joel, is there anything left to do? Drone drunk. And you're like, there is nothing left to do. I've done it. I've done it all. Well, I've not jumped out of an airplane drunk. No, thank God.

Definitely.

But I probably would know what that would feel like. I wish that I did sometimes because of the shit I said or did while I was drunk. Yeah, happy to be sober. Yeah. And of a clear mind. And also happy to drink. I love drinking. It was fun. Yeah. Wouldn't want to, like, have been sober my whole life. Yeah. And miss out on that, like. Yeah. And even just knowing that you'll never cause a car accident or that you'll never hurt somebody because of the dr-

the drinking, right? You'll never, you're just not subject to the, to the, ⁓ the, the potential violence that that particular substance can cause. Yeah. I'm a hundred percent in control all the time. That the, again, the reaction in the space between response and reaction is grows, grows and grows. And yeah, there was something I hated about drinking was, I'm going to drink.

responsibly tonight and I'm gonna go out and I'm gonna have two or three beer with my wife and we're gonna have dinner. And now I have to get home and I'm not drunk. I've had three beer over two hours, but if I get pulled over or if you hurt somebody, I hurt somebody all of a sudden and it was just too much stress. It's like, yeah, I, ⁓ yeah, I'm tired of these rules kind of. And who, and who hasn't had that feeling where you've had a couple of beers and then you're driving home and then there's the like the police check.

Right. And then like you just turn the corner, you're driving along and then like you see the lights and then there's nowhere to turn back fumbling in your bag. You clear eyes. Yeah. my God. Essential oils just do. was like, like Menthos are just getting popped in. You're sucking on pennies and like you roll down the window at half an inch. Yes, officer. ⁓ I'm just taking my courage home. He's taking my drink. He's like his head. It's only six p.m. and I've had six beer. ⁓ shit.

Well, yeah, it's the worst. It is the worst. I've been pulled over with not drinking, but pulled over with the kids in the back. Just over here at that 30s. I was doing like 50 in the 30s. Oh, yeah. And it was that officer, big black guy. Oh, yeah. Do you know his name? he's probably not listening to this podcast. I hope so. But we'll have to edit that part out too. I don't know.

He's a bigger black dude. But anyway, he pulled me over. Is he gay? Yeah. Oh, shit. OK, we're going to have to edit this out. That's OK. That's not We're not disparaging his character. Anyway, he pulled me over, and the kids were like just...

They were just going crazy in the backseat. They were just yelling and bickering. And so I wasn't paying attention. So he pulls me over. And I pull over right at St. Mary's Lake there. No, Cushion Lake. Sorry, Cushion Lake. And he comes over and he's like, you're doing 50 in a 30 zone. I'm like, I'm sorry, officer. The kids were just like, they're being super loud in the back. They're distracting me. And he just looks at me. like, don't blame it on the kids.

He said this dead Japan voice. Don't blame it on the kids. my gosh. Yeah. And I always remember that because I'm just like, who else do I blame it on? Yeah. Who else do I blame it on? And not only that, but where else in my life am I blaming shit on my kids? I couldn't, I I couldn't get, couldn't make rent this month. The kids were just all over the place. They ate all, they stole my money. The kids ate the rent money. I loved, ⁓

You know, when my kids were young, people would be like, you want to hang out? And I'd be like, oh, got it. Kids got something. I always had a good excuse with the kids. And the kids moved out. And I was like, shoot, I don't have an excuse. Oh, my goodness. It's so easy. It's so easy. Oh, kids this, kids that. Yeah. Well, like, Tonya's really good about not making excuses about the kids' health.

Oh, like we can't make it to the party because one of the kids is sick, but the kid's not sick. Right. So because then you're putting that energy out into the world about sickness and the kid. we avoid that. But, you know, like other things are OK. I got to drive. My kids got a tennis tournament. I don't know.

I try not to outright lie, but you can just sort of bend it. Bend it like Beckham. With the kids. Then other parents get it. Have ever hang out with people that don't have kids? That are our age? Well, it's me and my wife. We're looking for friends who don't have kids, because everybody does. My kids are so old. Who doesn't have any kids?

It's kind of strange, know. People our age, like 50, Yeah. Coming out of 50 not having kids. It is really strange. When I was young, none of my friends had kids.

And I didn't any friends in the schools because I was just this young little punk who, and everybody else was literally 10 or 15 years older than me. But then in your 30s, you were like balls deep in raising kids. I was balls deep in raising kids and the teachers loved me, the principals, they all loved me. I was coaching different sports for my kids. Yeah, it was great.

Did you hear about the pedophile on Salt Spring? Yeah. Yeah like get and he didn't even get arrested

I know, I heard about that. Yeah, that really pisses me off. You brought that up in the gym, actually. Yeah, I wanted to let everybody know about it. Yeah. And people like that shouldn't be hidden. Yeah. They should be exposed. Yeah, but then again, we live in this, like, sort of this victimhood. We, like, the perpetrator becomes the victim. That's so funny. It's just, in the last 15 years. Yeah, it's too bad. It's sad because the victims aren't protected. Yeah.

The true victims are protected. But that's why we need strong men. Strong men make for good times. Yeah, that's very true. love that saying too. Yeah, weak men make for hard times. Strong men, strong minds, strong... What I find really tricky, one of the hardest things for me is to be strong and have good boundaries without coming off angry.

It's really a challenge. Well, I mean, think any time you have boundaries, you're to come off as like there's going to be because somebody is hitting up against boundaries, right? So there's like a it's not I struggle with that a bit too with boundaries. It's like I like to just keep things soft and, know, not.

You know, make people feel comfortable. But Tony is much better with boundaries. Like she'll be like, you know, I'm like my birthday. There was like people like, Hey, can we camp on your property? And I was like, yeah, it should be okay. I you like, no, septic is too small. Like, Like she just like, she has no problem. like, okay, we'll go to Ruckle. Yeah. So, right. Right. Right. Whereas all Humminham like, ⁓ one or two people camping, lots of grass, lots of grass. But then, you know, then Tone's like, yeah, but you know, we have limited washrooms. We have limited septic. It's going to be like, we can't, we just don't have the capacity. And there's a campground just down the

So like let people camp there. Yeah, and she has no problem telling people that whereas all kind of beat around the bush, right? So that's something I'm working on is just being a little more

direct with the boundaries. Yeah, me too. Without being emotional good with the boundaries. You're good with the boundaries, Well, you're very, like at the gym specifically, with your shoes and the cleanliness and not eating. Like your rules are strict, man. And you'll tell people, you're like, hey, man, like your shoes are dirty. need to like, and, you know, or like with payment even, just like, hey, this is, so I think you run your business with good boundaries and people respect it. And I think.

Yeah, like you audition people for your gym, right? That's you're not like Gold's gym where like anybody can become a member. Well, everybody's welcome, but you got to get through me. That's tough, man. Those some, those squads are like, you know, they're to take you down. If you don't have clean shoes, those quads are going to take you down. You best be looking out. I remember I was chewing my knicker, my knicker, I got them in there once and he's like, what's in your mouth? And you're like, what's in your mouth? I'm like, oh, it's just some gum. He's like, okay.

And then you're like, okay, and then you kind of gave me this like up and down look. I'm like, I better get rid of I don't think he likes the gum. So now I get out of the car and I get out of the car and I just chuck my gum like deep into the bushes. Oh, that's hilarious. That is so funny. I remember that. don't remember that. No, I remember it. because I think you thought I was eating.

I was just wondering if you were eating like, oh, you're going to eat before you work out? Like, oh, interesting. No, I was like, he doesn't want food in his gym. But I'm like, it's just gum. But I'm like, I get it. don't want to be shitty, right? Like it pops out of my mouth onto like onto the floor, the floor. And somebody steps on it. And I was like, it's a gooey mess. And it would be shitty. That'd be shitty. You know, I don't actually have a thing for gum. And food just has to stay where the dirty shoes are allowed. No food on the gym floor. But because sometimes the ladies will bring their kids in.

Yeah, I think you've got mixed feelings about that from what I've heard though, Tell me what you've heard. you don't like that. It's not a kid's place. It's not a children's place. It's not a children's place and it's distracting for the mom. It is distracting for the mother and I want to support people like if they can't come to work out and it happens once in a while, the children are more than welcome, but it's not like a regular thing. Yeah, it's tricky. Maybe you could just get some Tonka trucks out front.

I said leave him in the car, go play with the cats in the back, look out for this senile dog, she might nip at you. Is it the dog or the neighbour? Yeah, the neighbour, we're not talking about them. The neighbour is the next level. Oh my gosh, senile is appropriate for that. Go collect some chicken eggs. That's it. Yeah. Yeah, no, kids don't belong in the gym. No, and I mean in the summer it's bit different. It's boring for them. Oh, could you imagine? Like just a bunch of adults lifting heavy things. Excuse me.

Yeah, it is very boring. Boring. When I was a kid, would do aerobics. My mother was an aerobics instructor, so I would...

hop in the back and do it with her. Like Jane Fonda 80s stuff? Fonda, absolutely. Wow, with the leotards. I didn't, yeah. Yeah, I did it with her. It's kind how I got into group fitness instruction in general and the passion for sharing fitness basically. And access to a lot of probably very nice ladies. I was so young. I didn't really see through until I was like about 12. I'm like, hey mom, can I come to the step aerobics class?

⁓ sure honey. That's the other thing that's funny about, and this is just guy talk, but yoga, see, there's, dudes still think that going to a club or a bar.

Is a great place to meet women right like that is so outdated to me. mean, you want to meet a nice woman Then you wake up. It's like 5 30 and you go to a 6 a.m Yoga class somewhere in the city and it's gonna it's gonna be you and 20 other women. That's right And you know, you're gonna do yoga with them and then maybe you'll come back the next day and maybe you'll come back the next day not only will you be getting fit and healthy and and you know spiritual you're going to eventually

ask one of these women out for a coffee after the class and she's going to say yes and then you and then you get part of this whole community. I'm like what are you guys not understanding like quit the drinking quit the clubbing go do an early morning yoga class. Absolutely I think that would be that's where you're to meet your partner and that's where you're going to meet the type of partner that you'd want probably. And you would know some know the person a little more intimately rather than some hot drunk girl on the dance floor you know.

Yeah, I was never really good in the bars. I didn't pick up very well in the clubs. I can't really think of a time I really was like, maybe when I was younger, I went to Australia. was a bit of a... But even then I met the girls in the hostel. Just when we'd meet sober, then go get drunk and hang out afterward. But yoga was a real... When I first started doing yoga in Calgary, I was 19 years old and my boys were like, Joel.

You could have told us you were gay. And was like, what? Why do you think I'm gay? They're like, you're doing yoga. These are your buddies? These are my buddies. I'm like, I'm not gay. I'm like, there's 20 people in this class. There's two men. The other guy is gay. And there's 18 women. Right. Right. Yeah. And the boys were like, ⁓ Can I come? Right. Right. Because you know, last night you were out. There was like.

50 dudes and like 13 women at the club. And you were just throwing money at them. Throwing money at them, competing with other guys. Right. Yeah, no thanks. It is like, seriously, it's like, it's a bit of a dating hack. I think it really is. then the trust grows, right? Like, that's how I met my wife. That's how I met Tonya, through yoga. I just started, I had just moved.

I just moved back from Sikkimus. I was working in Sikkimus. That's a different podcast story. But I moved back to Vancouver and I was looking, you know, to reintegrate back into a community. And I was, I was just starting my photography for real. And I started just going to the hook. just hooked up with this Yaltown yoga with Yaltown yoga, Steve Merkley and Heather. It started. It was like this really cool, organic, young group of people that were practicing and, everybody's really cool. So I started going every day. I was living downtown and I just like,

into this whole community of yogis. And then I eventually met Tonya, she's a teacher there, then not long after that we moved to India. Amazing. it was, mean, yoga has been ⁓ just a wonderful part, it's the sangha, right? The community of yoga. And everybody is in that yoga space, everybody speaks to each other in that yoga way, which can sometimes be annoying, but...

But it's like there's that consciousness of compassion and kindness and growth. Growth for sure. Right? In that community. Because if you're not growing up, you're growing down. That's right. You're not just stagnant, staying still. Entropy, right? Absolutely. Everything just starts to decay. Yeah, I love the practice of yoga. It's really a potent part of my life. All eight limbs. Yeah, but...

What else you want to talk about? You want to talk about pee? Urine therapy? Urine therapy? What do they call it in India? It's a big thing in India. Shimbabu. I've never done it. I'm going to be 100 % honest. I've thought about it, and I've known about it for years and years, auto urine therapy. What's your experience with it? Well,

Nothing but positive experience with it. Maybe three years ago I got some blood work done. This wasn't feeling super hot and the blood work came back. It said I had chronic kidney disease. Wow. And I was like, what? Because I was healthy and I had quit drinking. I had been sober for four years and it just didn't really make any sense to me. But I was getting older. I was about 44 and, you know, just getting older. Some of these things were kind of creeping up on me.

And I was meditating, of course, and all of a sudden I got the message, drink your pee. I was like, ⁓ gross. And then it just kept coming back, drink your pee, drink your pee. So was like, fine. So I started drinking my pee. Wow. And, ⁓

The first time was OK. was like, that's not so bad. But then the second day, put it to my lips and I was like, oh, gagging. I'm going to puke. But I put it down anyways. then I started to be a bit of a, I said, and I started to not enjoy it, but just get into it.

started doing more research on it and it's an amazing product. 95, it's 95 % plasma. It is not a waste product in fact. There's urea in it which makes up about 2 % and ⁓ basically blood plasma is basically what it is. So it's loaded with stem cells and... ⁓

When you drink your first morning urine, it is a biofeedback loop. So all night the body is trying, the kidneys are filtering, the liver is filtering, everything is trying to rebuild or repair itself. And then you, when you pee, you have the blueprint for what your body needs help with. So then you drink your urine, you put it back into your belly and you're.

abdomen now recognizes where you're struggling and starts to create the enzyme or product that each particular organ may need, whether it's lacking or whether it's an excess, and starts to regulate your body in this way.

And I noticed lots of great benefits right off the bat within a couple of weeks. Like it was fast. Like with the chronic kidney disease, I was peeing three times a night, which was kind of bothering me. So what was the nature of your kidney disease? Like what was going on? Well, there's a few things that I was thinking it might be. One was I was eating way too keto. I wasn't eating enough for eating vegetables. So I think that the creatinine was just a little bit high. So just heavy meats. Heavy meats. Beef, chicken, all of it. All of it. Eggs. I was eating like six eggs.

No carbs, no breads, no sugars. No carbs, lots of fats. I think it was just a taxing a little bit on my kidneys. So I think that was one of the things. There's another thing for the creatinine blood work that if you have a large muscle mass in relationship to your body size, then your creatinine blood work will show high.

But really for me, I was peeing three times a night. Like I was going, getting up, I'd go down to bed at 10, wake up at 11, go pee, wake up at one, go pee, wake up at four, go pee. I just thought I was part of getting old. And then I started drinking my urine. Within a couple of weeks, it was night and day difference. Like I was sleeping through the night within two weeks of drinking my pee. So the morning pee is the...

The main one. It's the most important one. Yeah. And so how many times do you drink every pee? No, some people do. It depends. Like there's so many different styles. Like if I'm fasting, sometimes I'll drink only my urine. Really? I'll wake up. I'll drink two liters of water. Okay. Two liters of water. Yeah. And then pee all day. Drink fine urine all day.

Midstream or just the full thing? Well in morning I drink the midstream like you just want to clean the pipes a little bit and then you don't want the stragglers at the end so midstream is the kind of

The magic. by the time... Midstream is like a good cup though, isn't it? At least. Especially when you're not penal. gosh. You know, I just like... I think I just have... I'm just like imagining it. Just this sort of warm, salty taste. I haven't tried it. It's crazy. thought about it. But it's super esoteric. Very esoteric. But there doesn't seem to be a lot of medical research around it. Or the medical research that's there says that it's kind of woo-woo and...

Whatever, it just but it just seems like all the all the Cheap free stuff doesn't get the medical research. don't know. That's what I was gonna say You don't make any money from drinking your own pee. Do you know? No, you don't we do make there's a girl I recommend you have on your podcast. She sells her fermented urine to her clients. Really? Yeah They buy it from her fermented

Yeah, so here's another story. She adds sugar to it, just lets in, like... No, no, you don't add nothing. So what you do is you pee in a bottle. I do it especially when I'm fasting. I keep, like, a growler worth a big old 3.78 litre worth. And pee in the bottle and then store it. And then six months later, it's so riddled with stem cells that it's uncountable. It's the most rich...

in stem cells, that's you again, That's me again, that's me, that's The most rich in stem cells you could ever get. more than the rich are getting from the young.

It's unbelievable, the amount of stem cells. I had, if you had, let's say a pimple on your face that wasn't going away and you put your fermented urine on it, within two days it's gone. If you had tinea versa color, put it in a spray bottle, spray it on your chest, it's gone. If you're spraying your ankle and you soak your feet in your fermented urine with water, you wouldn't believe how quick your urine heals ailments from the inside and on the outside. It's...

Well, P like peeing peeing on your wounds is an old World War one thing like they they Yeah, it's not the septic it is Yeah, and you can it's like coconut water. It's because it's pure plasma You could put it right back into the blood a lot of people inject their urine into their injury spots and find they get a lot of relief from that Wow Yeah, it's funny, you know sleep urine Breath

These are things that don't get lot of, get talked about, but they're such healing. Well, I was listening to Huberman, you know, Huberman. yeah, I love that dude. So he was saying, wake up before you brush your teeth.

little bit of water, swish it around all your saliva, bacteria, saliva and swallow that. Drink that down here. I've heard that too. It's interesting all these, a lot of this, and this is a great thing with the internet when we have to be a little careful, obviously, but there's just this discovery of the body's innate ability to heal and the body's innate, ⁓ you know, the that it produces things that are, you know,

can have healing qualities. Like you wouldn't think you're in your, you you're peeing or your body's trying to get it out. So we automatically think that's gross. But to put it back into the body having benefits. If you look at face creams and stuff, the main ingredient is urea. Urea is the only proven skin moisturizer scientifically. All of the other things they put in face creams are not.

do have nothing on your ear. In Singapore, they separate the poo and pee from public washrooms and sell the pee to ⁓ companies like Clinique and Covergirl so they can put it into their makeup and face creams. So I might as well take your own is what I say. I put some on my face every morning too. I've gone crazy. It's been three years. It's changed my life. I went and got my blood work done back to that creatinine blood test. The doctor was like,

Chronic kidney disease isn't reversible, but it seems as though yours has been reversed. So, wow. Yeah, the kidneys don't bounce back like the liver. It doesn't, no. So we gotta be careful. We really do. Joel, we're coming up on two hours, man. Well, that'll be that then, my friend. I think we've got enough to go on until the next episode. I look forward to it. We just gotta practice up so we can both get on Rogan one day.

For sure, right? That's the thing. hours, we need three hour marathons. Yeah, we gotta get the camera. And smoke cigars. Gotta figure out why that doesn't work. yeah, smoke cigars on Rogan. I think I'd smoke one with Rogan if he offered. You'd be great Rogan guest. That'd be fun. We're gonna be our own Rogans. We are. All right, buddy. I love you. love you too. Thank you, Martin. It's an honor to be on your show and thanks for inviting me. All right, buddy. We'll talk soon.

Description text goes here

martin p prihoda (00:00)

Welcome to the Weary Trevor podcast.

Martin P Prihoda (00:20)

And welcome back to the weary traveler. Glad you could join us today. And our guest is Dr. Rigoberte Kefferputz. Yes, that is his actual name. Dr. Rigoberte is a naturopathic doctor practicing here on Salt Spring Island, BC. He blends modern integrative care with natural healing modalities. His holistic approach emphasizes personalized treatment plans that address root causes, incorporating acupuncture nutrition.

herbal medicine, IV therapy, bioidentical hormones, comprehensive lab testing and somatic therapy. It's all delivered in a peaceful private setting on Mount Maxwell with a focus on conditions like digestion issues, hormonal imbalances, immunity, men's health, cardiovascular disease, mental health and toxicity. Rego creates an inclusive space where patients feel empowered and supported on their health journey. Dr. Rego.

Welcome to the show.

Martin P Prihoda (01:18)

Man, I am so excited to be here, thank you. and for those of you that are listening, Rigo and I, I think I guess we initially met at Joel's gym. We work out and we work out We work out hard. Joel kicks our butt. I lose at least like five pounds of water weight sweating. And you just came back from a workout.

I did, I did. I'm fresh off it. I got all the endorphins running. Right on. Well, let's start at the beginning here. ⁓ What you got for me? Well, let's talk about your name, man. I love your name. Rigo Burt Kefferputz. What is the origin of that name? Well, great question. Rigo Burt actually comes from the old ⁓ Rick Burt, which is an old Saxon name. ⁓

My grandparents were super upset that I was called that because anything too German back then was not a good thing, right? They wanted to call me David or something like that. But my mom had a dream about it and a dream about it again. And so she said, you know what, I'm going to go with it. So it's a regal bird. And then Kefferputz, something to do with a river near Düsseldorf. I don't really know. My dad tried to find that out. He went on a journey to figure out the last name, got to a restaurant that was called that. But that's far as it went.

Yeah, it's just so so rego is rego bird is a traditional German name. Yeah. So your ancestry is German. That is half German half Dutch. Okay. Okay. Just kind of a funny hybrid. Right. Ask any Dutch person and be like, you don't see that combo a lot. Yeah, no. And there's some historical ⁓ friction, friction there. Natural friction, major cultural difference. Right, right. And were you born in Germany? Yeah, I was born in Berlin. I'm in Berlin. Okay, you're born in Berlin.

Yeah. Okay. Great city. ⁓ man. I mean, you can say it is now Germany and then there's Berlin. Right. And they're two different things. Right. Right. It's like there's America and then there's New York. Yeah, exactly. And you don't even need to speak German to be in Berlin. It's actually it's a running joke in Germany that everybody speaks English, which is like German English. Okay. We just sub English words all the time into our German. So so growing up, you grew up in an urban environment.

No, not at all. was seven months in and then I think around the time when the wall went down and then we migrated back to where my dad was born in Dusseldorf, which is in the northwest side, close to the border of the Netherlands. And it's a fashion city, always has been, but that's all I know about it. Right, okay. Were you born when the wall was still up? don't know how I'm still trying to figure that out. I think it was. I think the wall was up, but I was on the west side of it. Okay, you were on the west side. Yeah. Okay, okay.

Just so you know though, if you ever go to Berlin, you gotta go to the East Side. West Side, boring. It's totally like Americanized. You know, get your Gucci, Versace stores. The East Side is where all the creative arts and everything is there because that was more affordable for people to live there. like you had all that cultural grow up and everything with it. Right, right, right. I remember I was in Berlin in, it would have been about 1994. And it was about 1920 because I was teaching English in Prague for a year.

And I remember in Berlin, they were selling like these little plastic packages with part of the wall. ⁓ And they were like, this is from Checkpoint Charlie. So somewhere at home, I have a little piece of wall. It could have been just from the guy's backyard, right? And was spray paint. doesn't matter. Whatever you make it. This is Checkpoint Charlie. I just thought that was super cool. So what, you know, you're an antropathic doctor. Where did the initial...

this initial sort of inspiration come from to become a healer? Oh, inspiration, that's a bold word. I don't know if I could put it quite like that. I was a kid. I didn't know what I wanted to do, but I had this definite, this role of like wanting to be good at everything and perfectionist tendencies. And so I went to McGill University, which is a pretty tough university. And I thought to myself, I'm good at science. So the first natural thing is

become a doctor. And the reason I became a doctor is because my dad always said, you'd be a really good doctor. so of course, that can have a big influence on me. And so I did a bunch of interviews, did the MCAT. And the more I had to answer questions about why I wanted to become a medical doctor, the more I realized, you know what, maybe this way of being a doctor isn't for me. There's a lot of red and yellow tape around that. And then my mom sent me something about

naturopathic medicine. To be honest, when I first read it, I was like, what is this? But there's some principles in naturopathy. And when I read the principles of what naturopathy stands for, I couldn't deny it. I couldn't say, ⁓ that's hocus or that's whatnot. There's so much truth in that. And it really was grounded in my own way of growing up as a kid. I'll probably forget a few, but the first one is,

Treat the root cause, Symptom management is important, but you wanna know what's going on and what you wanna do about that. Second one is, and that's a point for any doctor, any healthcare professional, is do no harm. See, when you graduate from medical school, doesn't matter what medical school it is, you're not a good doctor, you're a safe doctor. And then you, with practice and continuing education and clinical experience, then you become a really good doctor.

And then there's an ounce of prevention with a panicure. It's a lot of correction or something like that. Yeah, yeah. Well, it's all about prevention, right? So like that's way more important, which this public health care system we have is more reactive in terms of medicine than preventative. And we can get into that if you want to get into that. Sure. OK, sweet. And then the other one. Oh, of course, dosere, doctor. Do you know what the word doctor means? I don't know.

And Latin means teacher. Okay. So to be a teacher. Wow. Right? And then there's that classic quote, you you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, you teach a man a fish, you feed him for a lifetime. Right. So I got to be a good teacher and teach my patients to take care of themselves. I mean, for me, the best case scenario is that you're so good that, sad to say, I'll never see you again. But that's a good sign in a way. Yeah, that's that's fascinating because, know, I don't go to the doctor very often and

The last few times I've been to the doctor is to renew my aviation medical. So it's just kind of, it's something I go to do because of a logistics thing. You you need it for your license. the checkups are, they're very quick and they're, I don't think they're particularly thorough. They're just checking like my heart and their blood pressure and stuff like that. But I certainly don't, maybe it's because I don't have an affliction. I'm not going there with something wrong, but. ⁓

there definitely doesn't seem to be the personal feel or the touch that you provide. And perhaps that's because doctors are so busy. And- Very inundated. You know, my experience with doctors is that my mom is a, she's retired now, but she was a practicing dermatologist for many years. So- Dermatology, man, that's tough. Skin treating. Yes. Treating skin's tough. Yep. And-

So I always, you whenever I come to her office, it was just packed with patients and it was like, she was always running behind and it was 15 minutes. I don't do that anymore. Per schedule. Yeah. So I think one of the interesting things about what you do is that you really take the time with the patient to really understand, you know, the subtext of what they're telling you as well, right? Because people can tell you one thing, but you have to sort of read underneath the...

The lines a little bit about, okay, they're saying this, but what are they really saying? absolutely. You know what I mean? I think when you develop a certain sense of empathy, compassion, and listening skills, you can hear a person what they're saying, but you can also hear the story that's behind it and what's running them. And then you kind of got to gauge also from the start, is this person ready to do the work at looking at that?

And so, know, sometimes I might come in a little bit like, you know, bull in the china shop and other times I got to be more white glove about it. And that's just like no die patient and no die self. So there's a psychology element to it. hugely. Yeah, because I mean, in a way, like if you look at back in the day, people came into the hospitals and saw their doctors mostly for infectious conditions.

Antibiotics was like, you the golden standard treatment and it was really successful but nowadays People don't come that in that often with infections. maybe they still do but most of them are these like dormant nuanced chronic conditions autoimmunity I fatigue burnouts mental health, etc. And it's just like it stacks stacks over years And so dropping into your doctor for five to seven minutes

That's just not enough time to get into any of that. It's not enough time. It's not at all. ⁓ Yeah, you really, I feel that you really need to take responsibility for your own health. You do. do because ain't nobody gonna do it for you better. No, they won't. And that's something I often coach clients, patients of mine, and when they go see their medical doctor is that like, you got to be your own best advocate because nobody's going to do it for you.

And that's because we live in this kind of society where you don't want to take up space. You don't want to make a big scene. So people come into the doctor and they be like, ⁓ yeah, this is kind of bothering me, but I'll get past it. It's OK. I handle it like this. Or it's only sometimes. And it's just really nuanced. You're not very clear about what you're telling them. And then you're surprised that they're not hearing you correctly.

And it's actually up to you to be clear about that and actually share with them, hey, I got this condition and these are my symptoms and this is how it's affecting my quality of life. It makes me sad, I don't get to play with my kids the way I want it to. I don't get to ski anymore. I always have to look for where the next bathroom is because my digestion's just all over the map. That has impacts on you. Share that, don't make that small. You are clear about that, your dog's gonna do something.

Yeah, there is this tendency to suffer in silence, I think, because, you know, life is so busy, like, you know, you got you got work, you got kids, it's like you take care of yourself last but not really realizing that unless you're at your full optimal, then you're not really good to anybody. You're so right about that. know, whether it's your energy levels or whatever, you need, especially with kids, right? Like you need to have those energy levels up with kids. Yeah, I mean, wow, like especially

You said it great, like you put yourself last, but that also means like you gotta look at the problem. And it's one thing to wanna do something about it, it's another thing to actually wanna look at it. And so that's something I do a lot with clients. And I think too, the unfortunate thing is in, I think in our society that there's certain odds that are stacked against you for being healthy naturally and easily. Organic food is more expensive than shitty food.

⁓ Everybody's schedule is so packed, like when do you get your exercise in? You know, so it's not always geared towards eating out. Eating easier than Ordering food online. Maybe not on Salt Spring, but know, DoorDash and just like, you know, I'm just going to order this. And think apartment buildings nowadays in Vancouver, they don't even have full-size kitchens anymore because

It's easier just to take an elevator down where there's like a strip mall waiting for you to just eat out. Right, right. And those companies that are providing the food, you know, they're not really concerned if there's seed oils in the... ⁓ man, don't even me started on hospital food. Like that's a whole other Right? It's just... I don't know. It's so funny. It's like you really have to... it's sad actually. Yeah, it is sad. But you have to do... You really have to be conscious about taking your health seriously. You do.

And still at the same time, I'm such a big advocate of that joie de vivre, like you gotta live it up too. Sure. You can't just be like boom, boom, boom, like routine, everything's gotta be perfect. You gotta enjoy life a little bit. So yeah, you're gonna have some vices, that's okay. But you know, you gotta make that work for you somehow in a way. There's a balancing act to that. Sure. And no one can do it for you. ⁓ Interesting. So I guess one interesting question.

that I have for you is, you've got these two ⁓ sort of parallels of ⁓ medicine. One is the traditional ⁓ allopathic. And you know, against disease, allopathy. And so you speak to it, I guess you could say a traditional, that Western model of medicine doctor. would, I think they would sort of assume that they're the real doctor. I get that often. It's like, I saw a real doctor.

A doctor. used to trigger me, now it just kind of at so that's my question is that now you're on this parallel path that's quite different. Complementary or know what happened? Complementary medicine, that it's not somehow taken as seriously as you know, the doctor, you know, the traditional doctor in the office with the white coat and the stethoscope and like that Yeah, or even like taking a prescription medication versus supplements. Like, you give a person a prescription with a label on it, man, they're gonna make sure to take that three times a day if that's what's asked for.

you give them a supplement, there's this kind of feeling where they don't do that. Right, why do you think that is? I don't know, maybe it's just something that's ingrained very early on, like this is super important, and granted, there's a reason pharmacology or pharmaceutical medicines are effective, and that's just because you're doing usually super physiological doses of what the medicine is for an impact, which is also why you can get side effects. Right.

Yeah, maybe it's because the bottle has your name on it and it looks kind of scary, you you open up the medicine cabinet and there's like your name like, this like three times a day or you'll die. a patient where I actually took the supplement bottle, opened it up and I poured it into a prescription bottle to close it. was like, I think you're gonna have no problem taking these.

And it worked perfectly on them. Maybe you should have a label maker at your thing and just put people's name on the supplement. Yeah, you know what? It probably would work much better. Because I know with mine you wrote the dosage on the cap, which was helpful. I like that. Because you forget. makes it easy. Otherwise it overwhelms people. You know, and was committed to that, what we had discussed for me. But ⁓ yeah, it be interesting if you actually had the label on it with their name and this is the dosage and those...

It feels Those ⁓

And you know, it's science based and it's empirical. So there is a validity to its efficacy. But there is the sort of this feeling that this is the way other ways are just woo woo. Yeah. mean, so like, how do you reconcile? almost understand it from their perspective. I know what I know. Right. I don't know what I don't know. And so I don't even have the time. Like in many ways, I sometimes really feel for medical doctors because they're so overwhelmed. They just don't have the time.

because it's kind of like pay to play. If you're gonna be part of the system, you gotta operate in that kind of mainframe. There's certain, call it, handcuffs that come with that. And I didn't want those handcuffs. ⁓ There's also a sort of a, you're beholden to the pharmaceutical companies in a way. There's that as well. Well, beholden to the bigger bureaucracy in the system. ⁓

You know, the classic scenario of a patient saying, I'd like to have this tested and the doctor will say like, well, that's kind of like abusing the system because I don't think it's warranted. you know, that's a, yeah, that's a very nuanced approach because it's all about anyways, making sense of it. But back to your question, arrogance, I'm not sure. I think it's more fear to be honest. Right. Because we're afraid of what we don't understand. And I used to have a lot of, I used to write a lot of letters to doctors.

because I wanted to create a lot of integrative care between my patients and them. But it just ended up taking me so much time and I never got any responses back that I don't do that anymore for that reason because I'd rather just take my own time back in doing so. ⁓ Yeah, there's a way of communicating with them. Yeah, my heart goes out. I totally get it and there's also like, it is what it is. Yeah, because I think, I would assume that anybody that

takes that path of medicine and goes to school, it really has an ⁓ ideal, know, that they want to help people, they want to help heal people. That's what you would assume. I mean, I guess they could be doing it for the money, it's a good career. To be honest, I did it primarily because it was a challenge. It's really hard to treat the human body. It's so complex, it's beautiful in a respect. In terms of... ⁓

how it comes back together when it heals. That's the part that really drove me. The secondary part was helping people. I know it's quite counterintuitive. People usually think, yeah, I would do this because I help heal the world. And yeah, certainly that's there, but it was because it was a big challenge for me that I was driven by just the complexity. Gandalf over here in the background, learning that magician archetypes of knowledge and gaining more and understanding the complex.

of the human heart and soul and physiology like what a beautiful specimen we are. Yeah, yeah that's amazing. also, the body is really an amazing tool ⁓ for navigating this world in the way it does, right? I never actually complete that last principle. The last principle is ⁓ vis medicatrix naturale. It somehow equates to like ⁓ let nature do its job.

is the fact that your body is a self-innate healing being. Like, you get a fever, you get cut, you get a bruise, you get sick and you didn't have to take anything, you got better. And so like your body has this capacity, this potential to heal itself, which mind you, gets abused very often for that reason. Well, that's what I was gonna mention is that it's amazing how much we can abuse our bodies. it's still, you know.

Like we say, the prevalence of alcohol in our society and the, you know, like just what the liver takes and what the liver, and it heal. Like the liver is an amazing organ. It's funny you say that because when a person dies or requires liver replacement from like fulminant hepatitis or what have you, I grieve because I'm like, you took the one organ that has the...

strongest, most regenerative capacity and you tore it all the way down to the bottom to the point that it needs to be replaced or you died. Whereas there's like other organs like kidneys, man your kidneys get injured, they don't bounce back like that. But your liver does. So you gave your liver a real beating by doing that. Yeah, that's real abuse. Yeah, real. I just want to go back and just talk about your patience, not anyone specifically, but just as a whole.

What are the stories you're hearing about where people are at in their lives? I know that's probably a very varied thing, but are there any... Overwhelmed? ...commonalities? Overwhelmed. Overwhelmed. I mean, come on, man. You can relate to that, I can relate, yeah. For sure. Just that burnout, that go, go, go. Yeah. Something's been gnawing at them, and they're just tired. And chances are they've already gone to see their doctor.

and they hadn't felt heard or they haven't had the answers or they're waiting between specialists or it's been years and know, X, Y, Z reason and they finally want to, you know, try something new. Right. And take a look at it. And so then do you ask them pointed questions about their lifestyles? for sure. Like, you know, are you, are you drinking or are you? I usually do that in the intake. I mean, yeah, that's usually for the intake form. I kind of refer back to that.

What I try to do is the second I drop in with a patient, I take my computer, I put a transcriber on, I put that computer away, I don't want that thing in front of me or between us, and then let's drop in. And usually in the first five, 10 minutes, I share my spiel. I share my thing that is really important to me for us to develop a relationship because when you see me for the first time, I consider us developing a relationship with each other for...

preferably what's the rest of your life that I can be there to support you. And I would like you to know how I operate. And I'd like to know how you operate so that we can connect and be clear in our communication and I know where you're at and we can be honest and feel safe with each other around that. That's so important to make good medicine, good changes because this world is overwhelming. you like you go to Dr. Google, Dr. ChatGPT nowadays.

And what have you and it's just so much info. You don't even know what to do with it. That's kind of where I come in. I distill that down for you. Right, right. Yeah, and that must be a real challenge for doctors now that ⁓ they maybe didn't have 20 or 30 years ago. it everybody sort of comes in with their like their internet knowledge that like their web MD, you know, it's fair enough, but I'm sure they're using it too. And they'd be smart to use it. I use chat, GPT and artificial intelligence.

for nutrition or caloric intakes or weight loss plans or even breaking things down because it saves me a lot of time. But I don't lean on it heavily as much for like evidence-based or certain treatment protocols because as you know, AI is still little pretty sloppy on some of those things. Yeah, yeah, I've noticed that in different contexts for sure that we're not quite there yet. Like from wherever it's scouring its knowledge. ⁓

There definitely are some things that... There's some things clinical experience can give you that AI is not there yet. I have patients that will get a test report back, but they won't come in for a follow-up. And then they'll ask for a particular product and I'll be like, that's an odd product. Oh, that's based on this test, but you're missing XYZ as well. But that's just because I know you pumped it into AI. You thought you had the answer, but you only got 25 % of the answer there.

Yeah, you know, like, like, take a topic like, so men's health, for example, right? All right. You know, somebody comes in and they've got, I don't know, erectile dysfunction or something. Do you have a no awkward silences guarantee? No awkward silences guarantee. What does that mean? There's no awkward silence.

There's no awkward side that says, no, there's no awkward side. I don't think so. if there is, I'll just look at them with a big smile on my face. That's what I mean. That's what I mean, right? I guess what I'm pointing at is that a lot, like an issue like that might be very difficult or shameful for a man to I usually ask in advance, be like, may I ask you private question or an intimate question? Right. And if a person says yes, which to be honest, 100 % of time they say yes, I'll just put it out point blank. Yeah.

But to be honest, I think it's because of the way I set up the session in the first five, 10 minutes. There's no room for that. I mean, I will make room for that. There's nothing wrong with awkward sounds, but I have an experience where someone felt reservation. felt like there's been definitely a flow of like, I trust you and I can drop in with you, even though I might have some emotional feelings about that, which is great. I let everybody know. It doesn't matter if you're angry or sad or grief or what have you.

No emotions too in this office. I'm here for all of it.

walk us through a typical initial 75 minute consultation. ⁓

How do you uncover root causes and co-create personalized plans that respect a patient's time, energy, and finances? All right, so the first thing that happens is my dog barks. He's like my doorbell. He lets me know someone's here. I noticed that. I definitely noticed that. And then, you know, when I greet them, I immediately ask if they need to use the bathroom and would they like aggressive or mild bubbly water? And then they're usually surprised by that. Then they make a choice and I get that water for them or coffee or tea.

We take a seat and then, man, it sometimes changes, but usually I give an introduction to my spiel, like the one I share it with you a little bit about. Hey, why don't I share about that right now? Sure. So often what I share with them is that one of most important things for me is transparency. But that also means you gotta be honest with yourself, not just with me. And as your doctor, it's also behooves me to sometimes point out

your blind spots. And that can be a vulnerable place, your blind spots. And when I poke at you for them, I do that in loving service for you, not against you. Also in transparency being that sometimes I might say something that triggers you, and I'd love for you just to feel safe enough to share that if that feels alive and you wanted to share that with me. I also firmly believe that when you are in that office, you are king or queen to me.

And sometimes people giggle, but I mean that quite seriously, like from an archetypal standpoint. Like we're talking about dominion of your life, your kingdom, not mine, not anybody else's. Ain't nobody know your life better than you. So let's get stock of that. Let's talk about that. And let's bring some empowerment to that. And I tell them like, you want to get out of this office and walk and talk through the woods? Let's do that. You want to go have a bathroom break? Let's do that. You want to...

Get a tea, you wanna go outside, it doesn't matter. Like, I'm in for it. This is your time. And I, from an archetypal standpoint, am your magician. I know something you don't know. That's what you pay me for. And I distill that knowledge down in bite-sized pieces, concisely, to not overwhelm you, but to empower you to make changes. pacing. Pacing's super important. You can have a great treatment plan.

But if you do too fast, it's just all over the map. Interesting. And I've done that in my life. Why? Because I got ADHD. And I think that's kind of my special part too, because I'm able to hold space, but I can also, in my mind's eye, kind of take that information and diagnose and think of pathways and consider mechanisms and what to do and how to do it. But I gotta come in with the right pace for you. Because I don't ever want to be too slow for you. And I may be too fast, and you need to let me know if I do.

But what I really want is, I want that shoulder to shoulder accountability. I want to be your corner man. I want to be the person that when you're going out there into the ring and you drop your left and you hook to the right, like if life throws you wrench out of the lemons, that we know what to do with that. And I've got a massive toolbox. There's a lot of things in there, but not everything might be for you. There might be some things that scare you, some things you don't understand. And to be honest, it doesn't matter to me if you are

Pro-pharma, anti-pharma, pro-vax, anti-vax, pro-homeopathy, anti-homeopathy. I'm not gonna judge you for it, but I do need to know. Because the last thing I wanna do is make a medical recommendation for something that goes against your beliefs and principles, your ethics. Like, that's not good medicine, my books. Anything you take every time and you have this kind of like, pang of fear, contraction in your somatic system, like, that's not medicine, that's not good for you.

All roads lead to Rome. There's something in there for everyone, but not everything might be for you. And so like that's honestly one of the biggest things that I share at the get go. That's just super important for me so that you feel very empowered in making some decisions because it's kind of my job to let you know the good, the bad, the great, and the ugly of every decision that's out there, including the decision to do nothing. And what the consequences of that is. So my invitation really is ⁓ take a deep breath.

and let me know what feels in alignment for you. Because that's the one thing I can't do for you. I don't know what feels in alignment for you. I can tell you what the options are, but you're gonna have to make that decision. And trust me to be that information holder, that magician, that doctor that knows, that teacher, so that anytime you got a question, I'll be here to answer it. But I'd like for you to walk out of the visit with a feeling. With a feeling, because that feeling is so much more powerful in kind of like...

creating the momentum and the initiative for change versus more info. Don't get me wrong, info is important, but I can tell people sugar's bad, get more sleep, stress less, work out. That's not entirely something you don't know about yet. You already know that, but that doesn't mean you're actually doing it. And that's because there's likely some self-sabotaging behavior or belief or whatnot, and that's the juicy stuff I like getting into. The ways in which you...

Kind of hide from yourself. Yeah, we all do that. We all do. That's interesting. And we're still at the beginning of the visit. You know, we haven't even gotten right. Like the midst of it. mean, by the time a person sits down, I'm already sort of assessing if you're walking, if you're limping, if I see things on your face or I'm already checking for all sorts of possible symptomatic or signs. And then most of all, I want to hear why you here. Right.

Why now? What do want to change? What do you want to bring more of into your life? What do you want to get rid of of your life? Let's get into that. And we kind of triage that into like, what's your priority? Because sometimes we as doctors, can miss that. We're so kind of like, we want to get the root cause and yes, that's important, but you've got to also manage symptoms. Because if you've had something for like 10 years, well, don't expect it to be cured in a week. It might take a month or two or three.

But if we're just doing root cause for like three months but you don't notice a change, it's not exactly motivating to keep making hard changes in your life when you don't feel those incremental improvements. So that symptom management is equally important to get incremental improvements while you're treating the root cause. Because they aren't always synced, they're not always one on one ratio. Right. It's funny you mentioned exercise because I really think exercise is such a huge

Component of health just a golden nugget. It's kind of is isn't it like you wouldn't Well, I do I do think cuz I exercise and I you know, I make sure I get at least you know my 150 200 intensity minutes a week nice and I just the Just the effect exercise has on you know, things like testosterone Oh man, right like the best antidepressant it best sleeve the best and it is best bowel movement the best

Yeah, and you know, it's funny because in the, you know, the kind of growing up in the West and you know, there's this sort of ⁓ Judeo, this Judeo-Christian thing where like this is the soul and then here's the mind and here's the body over here and the body's like this temple and it is kind of this idea of separateness to everything. But then in the East, because you know, I lived in India for 15 years and so I was able to really delve into more of the Eastern.

philosophies and in the East, the body is actually the outermost extension of the mind. So it's like if you drop a pebble into a pond, there's these concentric rings that go out. ⁓ so every thought becomes an emotion. Every emotion we can somehow sense in the body. Right? So.

And I think the opposite way is sort of true with exercise where we're just really invigorating the body and making the body work and pump that it sort of goes in reverse into the mind as well. So it's just like this integrated mind-body thing. You're not just exercising the body, but you're exercising the mind. And you know what's crazy is that a lot of people nowadays don't sweat.

I see this all the time. And it's like such an important component as an among tree, which is like an old vitalistic term for a detoxifying organ, the skin, right? Sweating is majorly important. And I like to call it movement, not necessarily exercise. Because exercise, people immediately think, ⁓ I have to go to the gym. And then I usually ask them, do you like the gym? They're like, no, I hate it. So let's not talk about the gym. How do you like to I like to go.

Walk in the chill with my dog, great, go do that. See if you can walk a little faster. ⁓ I like to dance, but I haven't danced in 10 years. Okay, well, start dancing. Go play hockey again, go play sports. Have fun with it, get some movement in, increase your heart rate, get your endorphins running. I think it's a really important piece. Yeah, that's fascinating. there's, like Joel calls it training, I love that, because you're training. ⁓ there's this idea of, ⁓ there's this idea of like,

intensity minutes in exercise. So you have like a vigorous minute. you were telling me that I was telling you about this. So like, like, you know, I've got I've got the garments smartwatch and it's like a minute of vigorous exercise is equal to, know, to lower intensity minutes of exercise. But actually, I think there's new studies that have come out that said actually like ⁓ a minute of vigorous exercise and by vigorous, I mean, like, you know, 60 to 80 % of your max heart rate. Gotcha.

Is actually equal to like 10 minutes Wow So, know like those two minutes we do on the assault bike where you know, I look at my watch, know salt by the assault bike I look at my watch start a park I look at my watch at the end of that and I'm like it my Max heart rate is like 175 180 and I'm at like 162 like that. It's up there Yeah, and I think there's something to be said about pushing the body for a short amount of time into that sort of realm of

of exertion that does something. you know, like once a week we go to Joel's, know, we're probably burning 7,800 calories or whatever, and that's an hour of vigorous exercise. The reason I started going to Joel's or like getting group training in was because it is one of the hardest things I do in the week, and you and I both know that like it needs a tremendous amount of mental capacity, mental fortitude.

because your mind will fail you before your body ever will. So you gotta push your mind. So when I do hard things, which is at Joel's, then all the other things during the week that I kinda like negotiate on with myself and sabotage on, they're actually really easy because I know how to do hard things. ⁓

Or when you do, even if it's something, sometimes the hardest things are the most mundane things, right? You're just like, I gotta go do that. you know, you're just like, okay, this is the 10th rep. Yeah, exactly. I'm just gonna do it. It's 10th rep. You're looking up at the clock and you know, it's like there's five seconds left in the rep and you know that, or in the clock and you know you could get one more rep in, but you're like, yeah. Yeah, it's a conversation with the mind all Right, and I always catch myself.

five seconds left and I'm like, okay, I dropped the weight. I'm like, could have gotten one more rep and you could have one more squat. You could have done, but you did. You fell short. then, always kind of has this, this kind of like winking look when, when, or when he catches you. like, you you put the weights down and you kind of like stand up and you're like, I'm done. And then you look over and there's like five seconds left. It was like, You could have done one more rep.

You know, I'd love to talk about this topic as well though, because I see a bunch of athletes. And athletes for me are some of the most burnt out, dysregulated individuals. Because they have learned and taught themselves to push their bodies past the brink of their limits again and again, competitively to succeed. What a feat, good job. But then there's not a lot of self-regulation to bring that body back into correction.

And so they often are like iron deficient. They're often digestively compromised. They're often hormonally deficient and what have you. And so I find when I see athletes like they need a lot of support just based on just their fuel consumption, the way they burn and the manner in which they do it. Yeah. It's amazing. ⁓ my middle son plays a lot of tennis. So we watch a lot of tennis, but when you you will sort of watch the US Open and ⁓ after their games,

you think they would just go like chill out, but they actually get back into the dressing room and they get on the bike. They get they, you know, they're still like, and it's I think it's what you're talking about. It's just part of like, okay, let's wind the body down. Like you just played three hours of like world class insane tennis, like you don't just like, you know, go hit the bar, right? Depending on the sports, depending on the sport, maybe hockey. But, you know, so there is that that's interesting. There is this

I wanted to circle back to the whole testosterone thing because we're both guys and I think you and I had spoken about this when I came to see you, but there does seem to be, in this generation of men, chronically low testosterone levels. And it's not like you got 40 or 50, I see it in people in their 20s. That's right. So, in your 20s you're meant to have peak testosterone. You're your prime. ⁓

Physically, maybe not mentally. What's going on there? Well, there's one research paper, I'm not going to say it, I don't know off the top of my head, but it talks about a secular decline where you look at the sample sizes and the testosterone levels of men in the 1960s, in the 70s, maybe in the 90s. When men were men. When men were men. And you could see, consequently, a continuous decline in testosterone levels.

So then the big question is why would that be? So I'd say one is because most men are overweight and we live in a generation of obesity and sedentary-ness, we're in front of our laptops and what have you. And also we live in the age of plastics and plastics carry BPC, BPA, bisphenol, so you know, quote unquote forever chemicals. Most of these are all Xenoestrogens.

So Zeno meaning alien as in foreign estrogenic compounds. And so these foreign estrogenic compounds, we are all big fish in a small pond, not the other way around. And so we take those in and these can have repercussions because when you have sex hormones like estrogen raising your body, it sends a signal to your brain that I got too many sex hormones. And so it decreases your testosterone status because testosterone gets converted into estrogen down the road.

And so there's a whole aromatization process, which is when you have weight gain, you burn more testosterone and testosterone. And what happens then is your sex hormone levels become out of ratio, out of sync. And so men start taking on more feminine morphological properties. Start getting more pear shape, more apple shape. You're starting man boobs, et cetera. And yeah, I get to see a lot of that.

is one of those obvious things you can see at the gym. You can see that on a man immediately. You can point it out when you're like, yeah, you got estrogen issues. Yeah, that's that's fast. Is it because we're more sedentary? Well that and because there's more estrogen in the air and, that obesity kind of like, you know, it cycles it forward. There's those interesting, there's those interesting photos online where it's, you know, it's it's photographs of the beach, the same angle.

from like the 1950s or 1960s and the same angle now and with this with people right there on the beach and man everybody is slim in the 1960s like just beautiful body the men are men are trim the women are are beautiful and then you look now and it's almost everyone is sort of on the higher end of a body mass index scale i saw this recently on people are bigger and like just there was a different like in the 1960s there was a particular

like a workout regiment that was the standard in schools in America. And it was like you had to do a minimum of 16 push-ups and I think 31 sit-ups and 10 pull-ups in order to like pass. And the training that was there was just rigorous. And these men were all fit for that reason. Nowadays, you don't have that at all. XYZ reason of excuse why my son can't go do that anymore.

It's funny how that's changed. It's almost like I feel like it's this mass demasculation of society. You know, it's interesting how we as humans, when we have one way of looking at something, and when that thing turns out in any way, shape, or way to be wrong, and this happens to me too personally, is we become so polarized, you go to the entire opposite spectrum.

There's no middle to find that. So you think at some point we were too masculine? Well, I think, for example, there was a point where it was like, be tough, be a man, don't cry, don't be a sissy. And I think that probably pushed a man to get very far, but you and I could both very obviously see the issues and the trauma and the self-sabotage and the shadow in that as well. There was issues in there as well, but there's also ways in which it probably propelled a man to push very far.

There was also two very brutal world wars. Totally. century, right? Which is only two generations ago. Maybe our great grandparents. Or our grandparents. Well, maybe our grandparents. Grandparents. Yeah. So wars tend to be very masculine things. As horrific as they are. And you know... I can't even speak because I wouldn't even know. I'm part of the generation...

What is war? I've never even been in war. I only have ideas. And those ideas are given to me through movies. So we had these two crazy wars where millions and millions of young boys and men died. And then there's been this 80 years of fairly peaceful time. the most part. The men that survived with a bunch of PTSD.

Exactly. Yeah, there's that. I'm just, you know, I wonder if maybe it was, you know, we all just went that was so terrible. We're gonna swing more. There's gonna be more feminine energy. the 1970s push in with a lot of energy. And don't forget, not just war, had the advent of the Industrial Revolution had a huge impact on households because it meant that men were no longer working at home from home.

They were working in factories. At home being the fields. The fields, exactly. So they were gone and sons were raised by school teachers, which were pretty much 100 % of the time, women. So they did not have male figures in their house. They did not see their father work. They did not know what that looked like. They did not share that bond. And what do we have for the last 80 years? We have an entire generational movement of absentee fathers.

And that could be physically absent or emotionally or mentally absent. And I think that has a huge, huge impact. And I feel like nowadays we're having this kind of like resurgence of the mythopoetic men's movement where I get more men, younger men in their 20s and 30s coming in because they want to do something about their health versus the older generation, which is like, well, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I mean, just just going maybe it's the

Maybe it's the algorithm that sends me stuff on X, but I get a lot of stuff about the gym and maybe it's listening to me while I'm at Joel's. But like, men's health, men's, so there are, and these men's groups, there are a lot, there seem to be a resurgence of men going to the gym again. Like it's starting or it's become, I think the knowledge too that we're gaining around nutrition and.

Workout types there's so many different types of workout, right? Like you don't have to go and like pump iron You could get a great workout just doing like hit training. Yeah, you know or like cardio just nothing ever wrong with push-ups and setup Yeah, yeah, yeah, I do it. Of course. Yeah you You want to be able to make sure you can walk the next day for sure. Oh, yeah Do you do you think? Like regarding our food though, you know again going back to this picture where?

you know in the 1960s where everybody was more slim and You got this picture now where people seem more obese that our food has just gotten worse Or you don't the same nutritional component right food that we used to it's the reason we supplement right like if you really have to think of the definition of the word supplement we're Supplementing our life. So whatever you're not getting out of life. You'll have to supplement it and this is often a conversation I have in the office, which is like

I recommend you do ABC for lifestyle changes and I totally understand if you're at capacity as in like maybe you've got two kids, maybe you're going through a divorce, what have you. So if you don't have the capacity, I'm not gonna judge you for it, but I need to know. And so if you can't do this thing, then we might have to supplement that thing. It's not just blindlessly taking a bunch of pills, thinking like, well, that sounds good. This website says it's good because man, the branding, it's...

crazy how good they are at branding. People coming in and all of a sudden there's this, for example, AG1 or what have you. And I look at it I'm like, man, this looks really great on paper and on the website, but every time I see proprietary blend on the back of a label, I'm like, what does that even mean? Proprietary blend. Most of the brands I work with, they don't do proprietary blend. They know exactly what they're doing and I know what's in it and the quality is in it. It's not like some secret algorithmic formula that makes our thing more special.

Right. Yeah. What's your, ⁓ let's say for general men's health or even women's health, what's your, what's like your stack? Ooh, stack. Supplements stack? Like, what are your, like, what are your dailies? Men, women, I'd almost say it's the same thing thereabouts. I actually saw a patient this morning. I was so proud of her. She's having, yeah, she's in her sixties. I saw the stack. I was like, that would be a stack. just give her every

What was her stack? So her stack was a B complex. Okay. And I'm talking like 100 milligram B5, B6, not like 10 or five milligrams. Like dosage matters. Most people don't look at dosage. But you got to take B vitamins on with a meal. All right. You'll regret it. As you go through this stack, can you just maybe describe why these things are important or why you feel that your B vitamins, ⁓ massive cognitive enhancements, cofactors. So cofactors and

Enzymatic reactions, reactions require, it's like a key, keys open doors. If you got the right key, it'll open the door to allow, for example, the conversion of like, making neurotransmitters, right? We love our serotonin and our dopamine and our norepinephrine. That requires cofactors. So B vitamins are an important part. We also know that B5, for example, really important for your adrenal glands and we love burning the candle at both ends, don't we? B6.

very important for endocrine hormones and we love our sex life, don't we? So those are really important pieces on feeling well and having vitality. So B complex is the first one. Second one, can't do without vitamin D. Right. That's a huge one. A lot of people don't think about that. We do not live near the equator. We are not in a Latin speaking country. We are north. are in tropic or temperate rainforest.

And just because it's sunny don't mean that you're outside. D is key. Would you say that if you're a Canadian living in Canada in the winter time you are probably vitamin D deficient? Ask any medical doctor if you want to get some vitamin D testing done and they'll say no. Well I'm not gonna do that for you because I know you're deficient. Go take some vitamin D. Right. you can... And testing is a... It's an important aspect but...

See, the thing about testing is we only test if it changes treatment. If it doesn't change treatment, it's not quite a valuable test unless it provides peace of mind or builds compliance, because those two pieces are kind of priceless in their own respect. But you would also test to get an initial overview, right? I like getting testing, but testing usually means more dollars. Right. Not for me, but it means patients have to pay, and that might not be something they want to, from their budget standpoint, want to allocate.

So it's a personalized approach. But I find that even now, finally, they changed the dosing on vitamin D from like a thousand drops to 2,500 drops. Sorry, 2,500 units per drop. So it's a 2.5 times increase. I think the ones I take are 25, have to check. They're like gel caps. Gel caps is fine. I usually prefer liquid because I think it's more affordable.

less stuff or extra Liquid you mean like droppers? Droppers. Yeah. And it's so affordable vitamin D. Yeah. And it's just so important. Like it's so important for our immune system. It's so important for your energies and whatnot and most people don't take enough. Okay. That's all vitamin D we have. Vitamin D. Yeah. Third thing, I just love something that's like an adaptogen, something for your adrenal glands. Especially because you know we're always done and we're always moving. So,

That could be likely something botanical. So you could have something with rhodiola or schizandra or ashwagandha. People love their ashwagandhas. Unless you have an issue with... ⁓

What's the family foods that have like skin on them that you can't eat that are inflammatory? Potato, eggplant, tomato, what are they called again? ⁓ You don't want to me? Yeah, yeah. My wife would know this. Shade, shade, nightshade family. Ashwagandha is nightshade. So you got a nightshade issue, don't take ashwagandha. I take ashwagandha. So yeah, just to know, people don't know that. ⁓

So yeah, something like that. I find that to be super important. That already to me, if you take a B vitamin, vitamin D, and something for your adrenals, that's a pretty good stack. Now if you're concerned about astrogens and whatnot, I might recommend something like indole 3-carbonyl, or DEM, or calcium deglucurate. All three's great, but just one of them. As a detox, just a general daily cleaner.

Okay, gonna stop there because I can make a whole list of that. But the thing is about like having the right dose at the right time. makes the right mean the time of day? Not necessarily time of day. It's just like everybody's different. You know, I have some people that take 10 pills for breakfast and they're like, it's not enough. And I have other people that take two pills and they're like, it's too much. Wow. Everybody's different. So...

You gotta curate to know exactly like, this is what my capacity's at. This is what feels good. And this is what you ought to take that's like the base foundationals. And then there's like all the extras you could do. It's a human body, it's so specific. Yeah, I think the one supplement I take occasionally that always makes me feel a bit funny is GABA. GABA. Like I get tingles in my face? Tingles? Yeah. I don't know that. mean GABA, amino butyric acid is like what...

makes that monkey brain slow down. it calms me. you down, great for sleep. And I like that idea for someone that's maybe having a very stressful life right now. I might recommend GABA as part of their stack prophylactically, which means early bird catches the worm. Don't just take it when you're reactive. Start your day taking GABA. So you're cool, calm, and collected. When start your day versus frazzled. Yeah, GABA for sure.

I know that Tonya puts MCT oil in her coffee. Change your glycerin. I think that helps. Coffee, is that like a bulletproof thing, coffee thing? You've never heard of that bulletproof coffee? I've heard of it, I don't know exactly what it is. That's as far as I go. I don't know, bulletproof coffee. ⁓ So you've got your vitamin B complexes, you've got your vitamin D.

What about like vitamin C? I love vitamin C. I'd add it in there. ⁓ A thousand milligrams, two thousand. Again, like if you're also like feeling like you're getting down with something, ⁓ take more. If you're a tobacco smoker, you should totally take vitamin C because ⁓ tobacco smoke leeches vitamin C out, which then affects collagen, which is why smokers tend to have more skin issues. Right. You know, that kind of like saggy skin.

Yeah, well you can see like that can see the capillaries. Yeah, exactly So like these things like again very personalized medicine for someone that decides to smoke. Yeah, you want to take vitamin C big time Yeah, maybe don't smoke maybe don't smoke but against right of either. That's what you do. There's so many it is, you know Yeah, this yeah, you know, you go have a glass of wine and that's 100 % that used to be me. I do. Oh, it's great. I miss that

I was just on the tip of a question. Testosterone? Yeah, think, I mean, I think for me, because you know, I'm 50, so I can feel the decline in some ways of testosterone. So I supplement, but I've got the pine pollen. Right. I love that. I love pine pollen. I do like three droplets under my tongue, hold it there for a minute. That's right. Sublingual. Yeah, sublingual.

You gotta hold it there and let it sort of like, I think the stomach acids can of neutralize it. I take Shilajit. I see a lot of that nowadays, people using it. I don't use it in my practice, but a lot of people are using it. Yeah, and ⁓ I know there's Tonkat Ali. Tonkat Ali, absolutely. Tribulus terrestris, horny goatweed, ashwagandha, high doses. High doses of ashwagandha? Yeah. Like 2,000. No, four grams.

Yeah, it's like you don't find that often that much you're burning through a national gun a bottle But I find synergy is much more important, you know one plus one equals four Yeah, having a little bit of everything kind of like built it and that's the thing. So I that I take those and then exercise And then mine said to yeah, I forget that testosterone is not just about muscle mass No, it's not just about erections. It's about like your

It's the machismo, the machoism. It's the ability to stand up on your soapbox and let you talk fight. It's your confidence, your ability to move forward, it's the ability to believe in yourself. Testosterone is so important for that. It really, in a way, makes up who you are and how you show up. So like a common question I ask is like, what's your level of confidence? Do you feel like you can still like speak up, crack jokes?

You know, let yourself feel heard in a professional, personal capacity. Because if you don't, that tells me something, hugely. And that also comes down to another social thing, which is this whole idea of toxic masculinity. I think that term is being thrown around so much. Quite men are listening to it, they're saying, if I show my strength or if I show any kind of leadership or if I show these...

Traditional machismo. Well, that's means I'm a toxic male Again, which polarization I was talking about right, you know, and I think that's versus middle ground. That's you know, that's being You know what? You're like back in the day and don't forget if someone throws that at you That's that's their thing. That's your creation of their belief. Sure. She was like it's up to you whether you want to take that on or not Yeah, but but even though I was I was speaking to my I was speaking to my middle kid and I'm like, what's it like? It recess like what do you guys do?

He's like, well, we play a bit of soccer. I'm like, do you guys like, do you guys like wrestle or do you like do that? And he's like, no, the, you know, the EAs don't let us wrestle or touch each other or anything like that. Yeah. And I'm just like, wrestling and play fighting is such an integral part of being a boy, right? Yeah. Boy, man. And I think, you know, I think there's this thing where it's like, that's being dissuaded that that is now, they're wrestling. That's toxic. Yeah. There's, there's this thing happening in society.

Yeah, it's just like an angry man is a dangerous man. Exactly. It's a very commonly seen thing, but I say an angry man who doesn't know how to deal with their anger. Now that's maybe dangerous. Well, that's a suppressed man. But anger is important. Anger is also tied deeply to testosterone, right? know, like they have studies on this is if you increase testosterone levels, especially super physiological doses from the amygdala standpoint, a man will like cue in on more aggressive signals and by virtue step up. But anger.

as an emotion is extremely overwhelming, but it also is such an important boundary emotion. Anger in a way really comes forward when we experience an injustice, when we witness an injustice. ⁓ Or perceived injustice. Or perceived injustice. It's about laying down boundaries and saying, don't mess with me, this is the line I And there's messy anger, there's anger that goes at others, there's anger that goes at yourself, and there's sacred anger.

Anger in a way that's clean, where you draw your line and you just say, don't cross that. And people are scared that and I think that's in a way I understand it because we have grown up in a society that teaches you that anger is bad. I mean, how many kids do you know that don't know how to express their anger? They see it with this, but in their households, it was like, don't be angry. Be a good boy, stop it, what have you. And so it's no wonder people don't know how to handle their anger when no one's ever.

So it becomes suppressed and that turns into shame. Oh, suppressed and then it also is like a pressure cooker. Yeah, and then when it blows, it blows. The yogis say that anger is the obstruction of desire of some sort of desire. That's how they define it. So there's some sort of desire, just some sort of will that wants to go this way. And there's an obstruction to that. And that creates the Interesting, because I'd also say anger is really tied to purpose. Because when you draw lines, you know what you stand for.

So could it be an obstruction of purpose? Purpose being these are my boundaries, you've crossed them, something like that. I think more like anger stepping stones towards purpose. It's like this is something I fight for versus fight against. I mean, it's so interesting, if we just even take it back to testosterone, if you wake up in the middle of the night and your baby cries, your testosterone levels immediately spike because you go into this almost evolutionary...

someone's after my brood, I gotta protect the clan. I'm gonna go for whoever's out there. But then if you take the baby and you put it your arms and you coo it, and your oxytocin shoots up, love, and your testosterone pivots and drops. That's crazy. That's very different from what I'm going through right now because ⁓ what's happening right now is that four in the morning, our cat just sits outside our window and meows and meows and meows. And it wakes me up and I just feel this anger, just like I kill this cat.

It just wants to be fed at four in the morning. And it's just gotten to this habit now where it knows that if it just sits outside the window and meows, either my wife or I will get up and feed it. And it's like, but you can just feel that like, shut up, trying to sleep. Meow, meow, meow. It's like, and it just like, my God. It's like, if you're gonna torture somebody, I can put them like in a Chinese water torture sort of thing, like in a torture room, just that meowing sound incessantly would drive you mad.

⁓ man. So yeah, testosterone, that's a big one. I really wanted to talk about that. ⁓ If there's, if let's say, ⁓ let's say there was a volcano on Mount Maxwell. Cool. If there's any one type of affliction that you could take from someone that's common and throw it into that volcano and destroy it forever, what affliction would you I'd probably take, I mean like, no obvious one would be like cancer. Let's get rid of that.

but if I were to pick something I commonly see, like the most common thing I Well, like let's say a cause of affliction. I should clarify, maybe a cause of affliction like plastics or mold or... Oh, geez, plastics. Let's get rid of plastic. Oh, mold. Oh, that's a good one. Yeah. Like what is it... Like in our environment, that's so bad. It's just shitty and you're saying... curse you. Yeah. I exercise you out of this world. Exactly. So like for a lot of people living mold.

Right? Like the West Coast and then plastics you've already mentioned. Yeah. Microplastics. don't know. be a big one. Espastos in those old buildings. Like what is the one thing you I'd probably say plastics, but man, we would be screwed without plastic. We would. Well, maybe single use plastic. Like just the bottles of water that everybody buys, like heavy on and... I mean, that's just gotta be like... I wish we just found a way to like be able to...

reuse plastic or find a way to disintegrate it. It's called it's called bringing a water bottle. Like bringing your own water bottle. I mean, every time I get like a little ziplock bag from like something I bought, I put it away because I'm like, I can reuse this versus throwing it into the recycling. it's still leaching like the plastics into I mean, you got to think if you're somebody that maybe buys Fanta or Coca Cola and plastic like and that's part of your daily diet. Yeah, or the rubber micro

Particles of tires on roads. That's a massive one really that we're inhaling Right when it's driving, it's ⁓ totally just like little microfibers. ⁓ my god. I never even thought about that That's why the tire has to get replaced after a time. Where do you think all that goes? I'm never gonna be able to drive the same That's that's a new reason to not tailgate. It's like I'm not tailgating because it's unsafe. I'm not tailgating because there's micro plastics coming off that tire right there

my gosh. Yeah, so plastics.

Okay, so you've listed comprehensive testing for hormones, gut health, infections, heavy metals and mold. What's one undiagnosed issue you've seen transform lives through functional lab insights? ⁓ common one is Candida. Candida. In men and women? Yes, I see a lot of it. And there's just no, you know, blood test for it. It's a use of functional testing.

LifeLabs does that nowadays. Explain, just explain for the listeners what that is. What Candida is. Okay, so Candida is a type of yeast. Think of yeast as fungus. Right. And it's an opportunistic pathogen. like it loves, when it catches you at your worst, it'll take advantage of you. And if you've ever made alcohol in your life, you'll know that to make it, you need sugar. And yeast loves sugar. Well, I make kombucha. And so that's...

Fair enough. I probably would tell you not to have that if you're doing a Candida cleanse. Right. I did not have any while I was doing one. But yes, it's amazing because when you make it, you use like a cup of sugar or whatever and that sugar disappears over 10 days. It is eaten and it's turned into carbon dioxide. And everything has carbohydrate in it. Every food item has a carbot in some way, shape or form. Whether that's easily accessible or not is another matter.

drinking beer and having a carrot, all this big discernible difference between that. Right. Drinking beer and having a carrot. Drinking beer or having a carrot. ⁓ In terms of sugar content. beer and having a carrot, I'm like, who's What is this therapy? Do people do that? Is this a diet? That is not a food I eat when I drink a beer. Nowadays, I wouldn't be surprised. Chips, nachos, maybe. Carrots and beer. Carrots and beer. Anyways, ⁓ yeah, treating that. So why does a person have that overgrowth?

⁓ Commonly it's because of their diet. Another piece is antibiotic exposure. Whether it's you're taking antibiotics or you're taking foods that are exposed to antibiotics or water that's exposed to antibiotics or who knows what. Because that kills off your microbiome. And your microbiome is like this beautiful bacteria that you were born with. When your mother gave birth to you, her vaginal flora coated you in bacteria and that was like the first imprint.

that your immune system got to meet a bug. It's like, whoa, who are you? Hey, you wanna be homies? Let's figure out a way to do that. So you develop this microbiome in your immune system, this relationship to protect you. So when you take an antibiotic, you wipe that out and it takes you about a year to get it back. Barring that there's no other issues. So when you wipe out this beautiful army that protects Really, hold on, just go back there for a second. Let's say I have a sinus infection and I take, you know.

penicillin or whatever, ⁓ amoxicillin. I'm wiping out what I got biome for a year. Yeah, they're about, it takes you about a year to rebuild it. mean, like, let's be honest. I'll be honest is that that's something I've heard. That's something I read five, 10 years ago. Okay. Go find it. will kill your bugs. Bad if you don't need them. Yeah, if you don't need them. Okay. Sometimes you need them. And ⁓

And then all of sudden you don't have this microbiome to protect you and this yeast is like, hahahaha. Right? It's time to grow and give me some sugar along the way to help me do that. And then what are the symptoms? mean, often it'll be like gas, bloating and digestion. But it could also be heartburn. It could be your arthritis flares up. It could be headaches. It could be rosacea. Right, that's a common one I tend to see. Like it could be anything under the sun. Fatigue, foggyheadedness, what have you.

It's interesting because it's really the gut has the perfect I mean it's warm It's moist. It's got bacteria. Yep And we like sugar so yeah that it's got all it's surprised it I'm surprised it doesn't happen more actually. Well, that's why it's so common, right? one thing I tend to see that Yeah, people get a lot of great results out of and maybe it's just like I see it maybe I don't know

Maybe it's also like seasonal, maybe I see it more like fall, spring, winter, less in the summer. I don't know actually if it's seasonal for me. But I can tell you, doing an eradication protocol for candida is a no fun around Christmas time. This is not the battles you wanna choose. Why is that? Because people like to partake in sweets. Partake in the sweets and the dishes and the alcohol and the good times. It's usually more of a January thing I find. ⁓

You're a busy guy January 2nd, 3rd, you? Oh yeah. Yeah, benefits finish and they reset again too. When you're, it's interesting, when you're just out and about in town, like let's say you go to like, you know, I don't know. Country Grocer. Country Grocer. was gonna say Canadian Tire. whatever. No, let's make it personal. Okay, so you're at Country Grocer and... I'm judging all my patients, baskets.

and the food they have in there. What about, forget even their food baskets. When you're walking down the aisle, are you looking at people going, you've got something up, you've got something up. You can just tell in their, either their skin tone or they're just, they're... Sometimes, mean, I should really... Say something. Really say something. I should really say something. And then I'm like, man, I'm an asshole.

That could be offensive. clearly. you know, you're in the middle of, she just went into my rice cookies. You're like, hey man, you're... That's some candy there right there. I can smell it from over the other aisle. Just kidding. Yeah. So do you find yourself like diagnosing? Yeah. Yeah, I do. I do. I tend to, it's like a Sherlock Holmes thing. Just like, boom, boom, boom. Okay. So you have that.

If I'm in that zone. Maybe sometimes I'm like, no man, I gotta hit and run. gotta get this country coaster stuff and get out of here. I mean, you did hint on estrogen being, that you can tell with a man that's so blatant. So blatantly obvious. Yeah, that's very obvious. Yeah. It seems to also fit in with the fact that they're probably not exercising a Or like kids with allergic shiners, like the little blue, the blue little thing under their eyes.

That's another key takeaway sign. We're like, oh, you got a B.C. We call them allergic shiners. You got a B.C. going on, you whether it's like food sensitivities, candida, mineral deficiencies, et cetera. Yeah, it shows up under the eyes. It shows up on the eyes. You ever see that on kids? You'll see some like bags underneath them. It's not a sleep thing. OK. I thought maybe they got beat up at school. OK. Well, that might be a more triaged priority to deal with.

Really? Okay, that's interesting. Well, because the skin is so thin up there. So skin and then all the blood vessels dilate down below, which is why you get that pool in your blood.

Beautiful to hear the rain. It is. For everybody that's listening, it's raining outside.

That's what you get for setting up a sound studio with a tin roof. Good stuff. It's not recommended if you're recording your debut album. But I think for podcast, you know, we're sitting here in the forest. We're in the middle of the forest here. I know. How lucky are we? Yeah, it really is a beautiful place. I'm going to hit you up with a couple last questions. Yeah, man. Throw it at me.

⁓ SIBO, S-I-B-O. SIBO, small intestinal bacterial overgrowth. So for conditions like SIBO, ⁓ autoimmunity or toxicity from microplastics, what combination of nutrition, herbs, hydrotherapy and lifestyle coaching yields the best long-term results? That's a loaded question. There's a lot. Okay. Let's just start with SIBO. ⁓ Explain SIBO. Small intestinal bacterial overgrowth. Think of it like candida, but it's with bacteria.

I do tend to see this a lot on Salt Spring because a lot of people drink in well water that may not be treated. so it's the way I always describe it. like, let's think of your like studio space. Okay. It's a pretty popping space in here. We could have maybe like a party of like 20 people. Sure. That's a good idea actually. Yeah, it is. It's actually a really good idea. But if we invited 200 people, we might have a trouble, right? Might be a little too tight. Yeah, that would be tight. Yeah. Think of it like that in your digestive tract. be bursting. And that's what happens with like what we call non-commensal bacteria.

They're not per se pathogenic, but in great numbers, it's a burden. And some of these bacteria can be either sulfur, methanogenic, or hydrogen fermenting bacteria. so hydrogen, for example, can induce diarrhea, loose stools. And methane can induce constipation. And you can also have both. Alternating constipation, diarrhea, what does that remind you of? I don't know. That sounds- IBS. Right?

Irritable balls. Irritable balls sounds like a misnomer because in a way I gotta go but I can't go. It's like it's like IBS often is like I oh you got IBS I was like, okay. Well, what does that mean? What do I do about that? I think the medical system isn't quite up at the front in terms of dealing with that But if you got the right doctor knows about SIBO that's can be very often one of the key main reasons What do you do about that? There's a like three-phase protocol. But number one is a eradicate eradicate

Give them no space, no mercy. Kill What percentage of your patients would you say suffer from some sort of irritable bowel or gut health issues? Would you say that's fairly common? It is fairly common, but you know, it's a spectrum. From the odd, I get gas, to every place I go to, I make sure to know where the bathroom is because I could go, when I have to go, I have 30 seconds. Really?

Yeah. Wow. Yeah, so it's definitely. It just moves through like from initially sensing that you got to go to moving out. To emergency. Wow. Yeah, so I mean ⁓ a common question I might ask a patient is ⁓ do you trust your body?

Usually the question is no. Usually the answer is no. And then I ask them, does your body trust you? And that's usually a definite no. And so in a way, I'm often trying to bring that harmony back where you and your body, that temple you speak of, and you're like the priest or priestess of that temple, you tend to it. Like there's this symbiosis, there's this relationship there that you want to build and foster and trust in.

But if you're just going all the time. I guess a lot of people are at war with their own bodies. Yeah. Man, we take that body for granted. We take it through the wringer. Yeah. Crazy amounts. We drive it like a pickup truck. And it's like, I, for example, have been driving my body ⁓ like... ⁓

Like when I think of a car, like let's say a Ferrari or something, I think of a car that's like, when I'm driving it, I'm driving it in full blast acceleration, getting my, I don't know, my 100 kilometers per hour in two seconds, and then I slam the brake, and then I do it again, and again, and again. It's like go, stop, go, stop, go, stop. That's not very smooth driving, is it?

No, I think you wouldn't want me to drive you to a country grocery. I've been with go-stop drivers. It's like, ugh. Yeah, it's jarring. It's jarring. Often we tend to do that with our bodies. We just like go, go, go, go, go. And then we're like, crash stop. And it's like your body's still trying to land on the tarmac. like, you're giving me time to settle. Yeah. Just like those athletes you were talking about. Interesting, And that's like another part of the SIBO treatment is like your nervous system.

That's a big piece. mean, to me, honestly, like the nervous system is foundational for all this healing to take place. Like if you don't know how to rest and recover, you could throw all the greatest stuff at it, but it's going to be one of those like three steps forward, two steps back type of scenario. So are you looking at the balance between like the sympathetic parasympathetic? Yeah, absolutely. Especially because we used to kind of treat it as an autonomic nervous system, which is to say it was involuntary.

We realize, no, that's not that involuntary anymore. You got way more power over your nervous system and being somatically in touch with it. By somatically, I really, you can talk it physiologically in a symptomatic way, like my heart's racing, I'm feeling flushed in my face. I have jitteriness. But when we talk about that deep somatic level, it's like, you know when you get that sensation of like a pit in your stomach, where you feel like you can't.

take a full breath like an elephant sitting on your chest. These very, very nuanced ways of describing, that's somatic. That's the felt sense. And you can feel at ease or can feel contracted. And that makes a big difference in terms of how you heal. Most of us don't or have never really learned how to breathe properly either, I find.

It's ironic because we're in a way all kind of grandmasters because it's the first thing you ever did when you to this world. It's the only thing that actually is with you all the time. And yet, I think for most people it's such a shallow, you know, like you take a breath very shallow. Sometimes I catch myself if I'm not remembering my breath I'll just take that, I'll take like a big inhale, like, and then another one at the top, like, and then...

I try to make my exhales twice as long as my inhales and man, just automatically I can just feel this calming sense. Everything just sort of settles. I do breath work with almost every patient in my office. There's different styles. But like a classic scenario, I'll see is a patient who might be four minutes late because of the traffic we for a while. They'll come in and they'll be super rushed. They'll like, oh, I'm so sorry. so sorry. And I'll sit them down and be like, OK, let's pause.

Let's do some breathing right now, because I don't want to get into the session with you like this, because you're not going to be able to drop in. And you're just going to narrate your story, that story narrative that we tell everybody. I don't need that story. I need you to be here with what's alive for you. And so I've had people, you know. You have to use your Gandalf voice and say, a wizard is never late. A wizard is never early.

A wizard is only ever on time. I love that. Remember that from the first, of other rings? I do, I do. Anyway, no, but at the same time, know, four minutes is okay, but you know, you can't be coming to your appointments half hour late either without, anyway. But the four minutes, even five or whatever, 10 But people get worked up, right? I know I get worked up. get worked up, especially you see a doctor. Nobody wants to see a doctor. No one gets excited most of the time to see me. It's one of those like, oh.

I'm do this for myself and I go. And some people get, of course, inspired and I appreciate that. you know, it's like you gotta look in the mirror. That's not fun if you've been avoiding that. And I'd like you just to like feel some grace when doing that and some ease and some honesty and some, I dare say, emotion. Let's feel a little bit into what's coming up for you because that's just as much alive and or can be in or out of the way of your healing.

Rigo, let's wrap it up with a couple, let's wrap it up with like some sage advice from Dr. Rigo Kefferbutts. What would you, you know, what would you say to our average listener that's out there listening to this? What's some sage advice you can pass on to them? man, this is one question I wish you preempted me with. Let's see, what sage advice I would impart for somebody? Know thyself.

Yeah, I mean that's a really great one.

Ownership. I like that. Take ownership. Take ownership over your health. Take ownership over everything. Take ownership over your feelings, over your thoughts, over everything. That's you. You're manifesting. You're creating your own reality. You've got a problem with something. Take ownership of that. Because when you take ownership, you take something out of the dark, out of what you hide, out of the shadow, and you bring it up front. And by shining light on that, whether that's good, bad, or ugly, ⁓

take power back. But if you're hiding something from yourself, because you're like, don't to feel that. Yeah, it's still running you. It really is. It's like when you lift up the rock and all the creepy crawlers are under there. Yeah, they all run away and Yeah, you're just like, I'm put the rock back down. Yeah, we all have those rocks, right? We're just like, I don't want to lift that rock up and I'm gonna see all the creepy crawlers, all my shame and all my guilt and the take on it. But man, you lift that up and then

grass starts to grow under the rock and yeah it might be hard at first and it is growing grains and if there's stickiness there then you know there's medicine in there so yeah take ownership. Awesome. Dr. Reagote man it was such a pleasure having you had a really good chat dude we're gonna do it again soon man. Thank you so much. Thanks brother talk to you soon. Bye bye.